Visa Vanquis Card Debt

[jenban]

Hello

 

This is my first time posting and it's quite a mild problem compared to the ones i've been reading about, so please bare with me.

 

My partner noticed my monthly Vanquis bill and told me my £48 payment had only taken off exactly 1p from the balance and I couldn't believe it. I just pay the bill by direct debit and never even look at the statement. I must have paid hundreds with only reducing the bill by pennies!

 

I need to know which is the best course of action because I really don't want to pay anything else before I know what i'm doing.

 

I found the debt letter templates on this forum which are great. I thought I may ask them to freeze the interest so I can just pay off the debt, but it seems the best advice is always to ask for a copy of the credit agreement.

This appears to always be stage one in the fight against a credit card company.

 

I assume I can ask for a copy of my credit agreement before it has gone to the debt recovery stage. I'm just at the stage where I can't believe they can keep accepting these payments and only taking a penny off my bill.

 

I have a mortgage and previously decent credit. I really don't want any missed payments coming up on my record, but I can't carry on like this so is it unavoidable?

 

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

[zazen.warrior]

I was just looking over the fine print on one of the emails I keep getting offering me one of these cards, I could not believe the interest rate!

 

APR 39.9 %

 

I would send a CCA letter straight away to start the ball rolling.

[eastendboy]

Hi jenban, you'll find the letter you need in the letters library. It's letter N.

Send it special deilvery and do not sign it but print your name.

[palomino]

I think you will find that Vanquis are very much on top of things. They play at the rough end of the market and do very well at it.

Their very high interest rate is always well highlighted.

 

Mind you they are better than some - I saw one company the other day offering a c/c with an APR of 199% !!

[zazen.warrior]

I think you will find that Vanquis are very much on top of things. They play at the rough end of the market and do very well at it.

Their very high interest rate is always well highlighted.

 

Mind you they are better than some - I saw one company the other day offering a c/c with an APR of 199% !!

 

 

I would try anyway but even if they got a CCJ you would at least have a finite amount of alleged debt and the payment (at a rate you can afford) would be reducing it.

 

Not an easy choice.

[surprise]

Vanquis will not freeze credit unless, of course, they do not have a valid agreement which was the case with me. I noticed that the interest rate was going up every 3 months after I took the card out so I sent for my credit agreement and it was not enforceable. I wasn't trying to riddle out of the debt but I did manage to get the interest frozen as I told them to take me to court or freeze the interest. Was quite happy to pay what I owed but I was not at all happy at how their interest had escalated, bearing in mind that there were only 2 late payment charges. The interest went up from about 36% to 44% in 12 months.

 

Personally I would request a copy of your credit agreement and see what you get back.

[jenban]

Hi again

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

The interest is quite shocking. I will request the credit agreement and hope for the best.

 

I will update the thread with any developments.

 

 

 

Thanks.

[jenban]

Hello again.

 

After several weeks Vanquis have eventually sent me what they say is a copy of a credit agreement. Like with most others I have been reading about they have just printed off some terms and conditions and put them in an envelope. But rather than send a copy of my application form they have printed off a blank form and sent me that!??

 

Their letter reads:

 

"In satisfaction of your request made under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a copy of the credit agreement, I enclose a copy of the application form which would have been completed by you together with a copy of the terms and conditions referred to in it.

 

We regard this as meeting our obligation under section 78 of the Act 1974 to provide you with a true copy of the executed agreement. On their proper instruction, that section and Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents 1983 (1983 S.I. No 1553) do not require us to provide you with a copy of the executed credit agreement between us in the form of a photocopy of that document."

 

 

Is it just me or is this complete nonsense. Is there actually a regulation which states they can print off a blank application form and send that as a credit agreement? If the account is in dispute are they not obliged to send me a true copy (if they have one) of the agreement.

 

If they do actually have one why don't they just send it, they can't honestly think i'm not gonna dispute the account anymore after they send me this!

 

I can't seem to find another thread with this exact situation. Obviously I want to send a letter back but i'm not sure how exactly I should word it and I don't think there is a template for this one.

 

Has anybody else received this from Vanquis?

Is there a copy of an appropriate letter anywhere, that I can send back to them?

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

 

J

[ScabHunter]

Upload what you have to photobucket so we can see it, but it sounds like an unbelievable pile of crud.

 

That doesn't mean that they won't find anything better at a later stage, but it does allow you to send off an "Account In Dispute" letter, and begin ceasing payments.

 

The "moral" aspect is up to you, but as they have behaved so unbelievably badly I would not be giving them a bent farthing if I didn't have to.

 

Here is the letter to send. Amend it as you need to.

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.(12+2 days after you sent the CCA request)

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

SH

[ScabHunter]

Further to this, I notice that you have a Direct Debit set up to pay this alleged debt.

 

This is a gross violation of banking security that you will need to address. I would strongly advise opening a new basic account with a bank totally unrelated to any you have problems with, and having any income paid into there.

 

If it was me I would get rid of that old account completely because I take banking security very seriously. Setting up Direct Debits with credit card companies is something I would strongly advise against, and DCAs even more so.

 

If you CCA Vanquis and they come up with nothing, then you can cease payments. It really is inevitable that they will get nasty and destroy your credit file. That is unlawful, but that is a minor consideration (if any) with them. You will probably need to go to court to get these defaults removed, so be prepared for a long fight.

 

SH

[jenban]

Hi SH

 

Thanks for this. I should have said, I already sent the letter you've given me. I waited so long for their reply that I thought I would just send it. It was a few days after this was posted that I got their silly reply.

 

I havn't got access to a scanner at the moment so I will upload when I can, but it really is a blank application form they have probably pulled out of a drawer in the office and stuck it in an envelope.

 

Anyway there is a new development as I have now received a letter from 'Impact Collection Services' who have been passed the account.

 

'PAYMENT IN FULL IS DUE TODAY'......

 

I have found a letter on another thread which tells them the account is in dispute and should never have been passed to them, which I will post shortly.

 

I'll see what they say and let you know.

 

 

Thanks.

[jenban]

Hello again.

 

I think this may have been passed back to Vanquis as I have not had another letter from Impact. Although, Vanquis were still sending letters after it had been passed to Impact anyway.

 

They continue to send letters saying that by law they do not have to send me a signed copy of an agreement. They are sticking to that story even though a blank application form and a copy of some T&C's really does not satisfy my request.

 

So it's a stalemate, as I am sticking to my guns. But all the while I am getting

£50 a month interest added on. Does this go on until they send a default notice? I thought it may stop when they passed the debt over to someone but it didn't.

 

I am prepared for this to reach the CCJ stage (however unlikely that may be) but I just need a bit more advice:

 

Am I now to ignore any further letters and just see what happens, or is there any letter you could suggest I write along the lines of 'I do not acknowledge a debt to you until in my opinion you have satisfied my request for a signed true copy of my credit agreement'

 

Or is this just pointless and will they just send the same letter back - 'we do not have to send a signed copy' etc etc

 

Also, if this does go all the way and I do get a judgement, I will have to pay the debt (albeit at a rate I can afford) but it will be a much larger eventual debt as the months of interest are added on won't it?

 

 

I keep reading this forum and telling myself not to worry, but it's hard to get it off my mind, so any suggestion for my next move would be appreciated.

 

 

Thanks

Jenban

[jenban]

*bump*

 

anyone?

[ScabHunter]

OK. I've had to think long and hard about this one.

 

This is a different situation from the vast majority on here, in that we are not dealing with a debt collection agency looking to profit from an alleged debt bought for pennies on the pound, but an original creditor with a current agreement.

 

This means that, in theory at least, there is something to lose by not making payments on the account - namely the spending privileges and the account itself. If a default is issued, the creditor will have the right in law to demand payment of the balance in full.

 

Of course this legislation is preposterous. By far the most common reason for someone to default on a credit agreement is that they cannot afford to meet the minimum payments. So, the law's solution to this is to demand an amount which is multiples of the amount the debtor is unable to pay, and to demand it immediately.

 

Whoever said the law was an ass was being extremely unkind to asses.

 

If that was not bad enough, the law then permits the creditor to renege on his contract, and pass the responsibility for cleaning up the mess on to the taxpayer at large. So, the man in the street ends up paying wholesale for the poor or unfortunate lending choice of the creditor. The alleged debt is then sold on to the vultures, sharks, cockroaches and leeches of the debt collection racket. "Industry" is an inappropriate word for it.

 

What relevance does this have? Simple. It is the reason why creditors don't care about their customers, and why they feel they can treat them as meal tickets, bleeding them dry with no remorse and no mercy. They are playing a game of "heads I win, tails you lose". Why bother to attempt to run an honest, ethical business when you can legally rob the man in the street every time your larcenous project goes off the rails?

 

Hence this case here. Rates of interest, or "use", which turn a supposedly respectable "lender" into nothing more than a back street loan shark. They will, if allowed, continue to plunge their fangs into your neck and suck your blood dry for the term of your natural life.

 

When it reaches the stage you are at here, where you are paying them considerable sums of money every month just to stand still, or even go backwards, then clearly something has to be done.

 

You have made a request for a true copy of the agreement, and they have furnished you with rubbish. You have then sent an account in dispute letter, which they have totally ignored.

 

The question is - why have they sent rubbish in answer to a CCA request? There are two possible reasons. One is that they have nothing other than rubbish to produce, the other is that they are planning to pull a fast one. They are holding an agreement in reserve, and are awaiting the time to play the trump card.

 

One problem factor in your case is that you are clearly a homeowner, which inevitably means you have more at stake in any conflict situation. This has to be taken into account when balancing the probabilities.

 

The underlying truth of this situation is that the status quo is unacceptable. Something has to change. As you are still under the original agreement, some attempt at negotiation is probably advisable. Invoke the internal complaints procedure. Quote the legislation concerning the CCA request. Include any unlawful charges which may have been applied. Also include any telephone harassment which may have occurred, and definitely complain about the account being passed to Impact while still under the original agreement.

 

Ask them to hold action on the account for six months. They will not agree. Take the money that you would have spent paying their monthly bill and save it in reserve.

 

You will have given them a chance to be reasonable, and they will have refused it. At this point, there will be a kind of impasse, but the ball will be in their court.

 

The most likely outcome is that they will contine to ignore everything you do, and behave like a programmed machine. They have, however, been challenged, and if they cannot improve on the sickly mess they call an agreement, they will be caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

If they choose to issue a default notice, they will be doing so with the account firmly in dispute. You will have already gone through their internal complaints procedure, and can now involve the Ombudsman. The only alternative they have is to allow the impasse to continue, with the money in your pocket, and not in theirs.

 

If they continue down the hard road, they will default you and sell the alleged debt to an agency. All while the account is in dispute. This also gives them the opportunity to make further errors which you can use to your advantage, such as an invalid default notice or an improper notice of assignment. You would be surprised how often these mistakes happen.

 

In the endgame, they will know that they must go to court to extract any money from you. Should they try, you will have at least one level of defence in the ludicrous "agreement", and possibly more levels than this.

 

It may be worth your while spending £10 of what you save in the first month on a Subject Access Request. This will include a true copy of the agreement as part of the Data requested. If there are likely to be substantial unlawful charges, then definitely make this request. The Subject Access Request opens up other possible plays further down the line, such as a court claim under the Data Protection Act, should they continue to withhold the agreement.

 

In the final analysis, they can only win this game by playing it perfectly. They need to be bluffing now, and be able to produce the agreement out of the hat. They then need to push all the way to court without making any mistakes. If they get judgment, then your payments will at least go towards paying off the debt, and not just maintaining the blood supply to the leeches. The final amount of the debt will indeed be greater, but as inflation erodes the value of currency over time, it should become reduced in real terms as the years pass.

 

A vital consideration is that the property should remain safe even in the worst case scenario. As long as the payments on any CCJ are made, a charging order should not be granted (Mercantile Credit v. Ellis 1987). Remember they will have to play a perfect game to even reach this stage.

 

It is worth mentioning here that if you own property, there is often a way to use it to gain tax free income by taking in a lodger. This may or may not be something you would want to consider, but it is one way of using your assets to claw your way out of a debt situation, without it affecting any other income you may have.

 

There can be no certain way of playing any game where the opponent's moves are unpredictable, and where the value of their most important card remains hidden. I have given what I believe to be the most advisable way to proceed. In the end, the choice must be yours.

 

SH

[miziwizzi]

^ the point regarding as long as payments on a CCJ are made no charging order should be made I am afraid is not the case nowadays as many caggers will agree.

 

We had a CCJ that the company went straight to charging order for with no missed payments or indeed the chance to miss any!!!!

 

I think as many others have said Vanquis cover themselves well, thet are after all a credit rebuilder card, and to be fair should not really be run up and paid off in drabs. I personally would not mess with your credit file and would try to find some way of paying more to get it cleared. I know that ultimatley you will end up paying a stack but we all know how these companies make sooo much money.

 

good luck, i hope you find some way of avoiding a ccj/charging order.

[MARTIN3030]

Site team alerted and looking into,please be patient.

Am I missing something since I cant se anything to suggest Vanquis have mentioned charging orders?

Being part of the Provident group,they are not traditionally known for going to Court.

Could someone tell what the figures are that we are talking about ?

Vanquis normally sell on to Cabot-and its Cabot who usually do the threatening.

[MARTIN3030]

Its certainly consistent with lots of other members experiences.

I am still awaiting my CCA from Cabot.

 

Heres an example;

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/133371-valhalla-vanquis.html?highlight=Vanquis

[miziwizzi]

Site team alerted and looking into,please be patient.

Am I missing something since I cant se anything to suggest Vanquis have mentioned charging orders?

Being part of the Provident group,they are not traditionally known for going to Court.

Could someone tell what the figures are that we are talking about ?

Vanquis normally sell on to Cabot-and its Cabot who usually do the threatening.

 

 

The post I refered to mentioned that charging order could not be made if payments on CCJ were adhered to, I dont think it was suggested that Vanquis were looking to make a charge but was mentioned within the thread.

[MARTIN3030]

Ok as I thought then.

[jenban]

Hi

 

Thanks for your help guys. The mention of a charging order was a bit scary but i've been reading up on it and I understand it a bit more. I'm sure it won't get to that. The figures by the way Martin:

 

it was about 11 hundred when I sent a CCA request

it took several weeks for them to send me a blank application form which they say is sufficient under section 78

they have since added 40 or 50 pound a month interest even though I have sent a second letter saying the account is in serious dispute.

 

Impact collection services have sent me another letter as well, so they're both chasing up an account which is in dispute!

 

Although it's probably pointless i'm going to send the following letter:

 

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 78.

 

I am pleased to see that you confirm this as a true copy of the original agreement executed by yourselves on the 26th July 2007.

 

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer credit Act and is therefore unenforceable under section 127(3) of the same act.

 

 

You had until (date here) to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, make any further charges to the account or pass the account to anybody else.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies including any defaults. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you fail to respond within 21 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data

 

 

I found this in the Vanquis v Valhalla thread, I know they probably will come back with the same thing but never mind.

 

I've decided to stick to my guns with this. I'm not sure how far they will go to retrieve £1100 so we'll just see.

 

By the way I never changed my address with Vanquis when I recently moved and I pick up my mail from my old address (my mothers) They still send mail there and I reply from that address. But the DCA sent it to my current address. Is it best to tell Vanquis my new address? I'm sort of glad they don't know where I currently live, but I don't want bailiffs showing up at my mothers house.

 

I've come to my friends house to scan the letters they have sent me but he is having the same scanning issues I am having, but i'm sure you get the gist of the pile of crud they have sent me!

 

 

Once again thanks for all your help.

 

Though I think I know where I am with this now, if you can think of anything else which might help me please let me know.

 

 

 

Cheers

[jenban]

Hello again

 

Just to follow up, Impact and Vanquis are currently both sending me letters, as I have just received another one from Impact.

 

I know Mercers are the inhouse collectors for Barclaycard. Is it the same for Vanquis and Impact? If not, why are they both harassing me, have they not assigned the debt correctly?

 

 

ta

[42man]

What are they saying in their letters now Jen ? any letters before action ? Have they ignored your letters that you sent last ?

[jenban]

Hello again.

 

I havn't posted for a while cos I didn't receive anything. Then last week I was notified the account has been passed to 1st Credit Limited. Then this week I receive a letter from LCS Solicitors acting for 1st Credit. Payment required within 7 days unless they start court proceedings.

 

Do I now request my credit agreement from LCS, or is it past that stage now?

 

I have looked at peoples' court defences posted on this forum and they are quite impressive, so do I need to start on mine now, or is this just another scare tactic letter?

 

I can't imagine the judgement would go in their favour when all they send for a credit agreement is a blank application form!

 

Any thoughts on my next move?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

J

[WOOD73]

I am dealing with vanquis, and I explained I could not afford to make the repayments they were demanding, and that the charges and interest they add every month meant that even if I pay what I can afford, the debt will increase, and I invited them to take me to court as they refuse to stop charging, there reply was that court action is a long way in the future and charges and interest will continue to accrue for a long time.

 

They know they can turn a £500 debt into thousands then take you to court and you havent got a leg to stand on unless as in your case they cant produce a cca.

[Forever_hopeful]

help please....long story cut short......

I had a vanquis card, however due to being off work for 18 months with PTSD they have taken me to court (shoosmiths) they were awarded a CCJ of £1 p.m however they were not happy with this and had it overturned, they are now applying for a charging order, not too bad I thought but as I have been ill so long I have debts on mortgage and secured loan not to mention various others.

I have requested a copy of my CCA but they sent me what I believe is a made up application, it says online application at the top, and a number of boxes are empty like my occupation, postcodes etc. The annual salary is nowhere near what I was earning. and there is no signature, will this copy suffice or do they have to produce a signed copy?