Going to Cout with HFC

[Paintball]

I've just realised ... the Draft Order for Directions is something that you choose to serve yourself, it's not compulsory, hence the Court not mentioning it.

 

Have a read of this from the ConsumerWiki, then tell us if there's anything that's not clear to you:

Draft Direction Order - Consumer Wiki

[Dyanomo]

I had a look at the link. I understand that if I had requested in the draft order to send something to the defendant then I would have to send that 14 days before the court date. But I didn't say I would send the Defendants anything. I asked that they send me stuff.

 

I am really confused as to what I am supposed to provide the Defendant's with. I don't want to mess this up and have it thrown out.

 

I have pm'ed steve

[Dyanomo]

Another strike out, Steven is away.

[Paintball]

I had a look at the link. I understand that if I had requested in the draft order to send something to the defendant then I would have to send that 14 days before the court date. But I didn't say I would send the Defendants anything. I asked that they send me stuff.+

 

*I am really confused as to what I am supposed to provide the Defendant's with. I don't want to mess this up and have it thrown out.

 

I have pm'ed steve

 

 

Hi Dyanomo

 

I've had a good read of the whole of this thread.

 

The Draft Order for Directions is something that you can submit to the Defendant (and provide the Court with a copy of) that will assist you at your Hearing.

 

Please note that you can change what is requested as listed in the link I gave you to reflect what you are actually asking for.

 

So:

 

In it, you will be providing all the evidence that you are relying on relating to your case for mis-selling *(1 a-d) thus: a) the amount and interest that you've been charged b) statements showing this c) and d) supporting evidence including details of cases settled against HFC.

 

Part 2 a-f) is the section for information that you are asking the Defendant (HFC) to provide you with+ and which Alphageek has outlined in posts #32,#33,#34. You are not limited here BTW, you ask for everything you require.

 

In your posts #23,#24#25 you have begun to outline what you require HFC to provide you with.

 

Have a go at preparing your Draft Order but I would make a specific request that you don't post it up here in the open forum as I'm concerned that the HFC lot will read it and maybe try intimidating you again ...

 

 

As you say that your hearing date is 30 October, you have a good amount of time in which to prepare this.

 

Please shout if there's anything you're still stuck over.

 

Best wishes. P

Edited September 13, 2008 by Paintball
Typo and clarification.

[Dyanomo]

See, this is where I get confused. I prepared my draft order (post 24-33) and sent it to the court with my AQ. I also photocopied the whole thing and sent that to HFC.

 

So, are you telling me I need to write another one? In my Draft Order I did not say I would send HFC anything as I have already sent it numerous times.

 

So far, I understand that this is where I need to get by 'Court Bundle' together and send a copy to HFC. I will send a copy of the Draft Order with it. What if they don't produce what I asked for in the DO. Is it legally binding even though the judge hasn't referred to it in the response from the Court (post 42).

Edited September 14, 2008 by Dyanomo

[Dyanomo]

To be honest I think I am about ready to give in. This is way past my understanding and I think I have just managed to wing it this far.

 

I really do not want to go to Court, I don't know what to say or do. I don't understand legal speak and I don't think I can represent myself or explain my case in the way I need to. I think I need to accept I have been beaten on this one.

[Paintball]

Dyanomo, please don't give up.

 

If you've already prepared and sent your Draft Order for Directions (which will have included all the documents/evidence you need to send on to the Defendant as stated in Part 1*) with a copy of all your evidence to the Court, then it is done. You should call the Court on Monday and clarify this with them.

 

The main point of the Draft Order for Directions is for both parties (Claimant and Defendant) to submit relevant documents/evidence to support their argument. The Court will require a copy of all the documents/evidence also so that the Judge can have read all the supporting arguments and be informed. It is also an opportunity for you to request documents from the Defendant that you may have already asked for but which they may have been tardy in or reluctant to provide.

 

I should add here that if you have submitted your Draft Order (and all your evidence as per Part 1) and the Defendant does NOT provide the Court with all their documents then the claim is struck out and, as far as I understand, you will have won by default. The reverse of this also applies, if you don't provide your evidence within the timescale, then your claim is struck out.

 

Secondly, there are Court Buddies that you can contact via this website. Please PM one of the Site Team for help with this and any others things you are stuck with as they are there to help : Our Site Support Team

 

P xx

Edited September 14, 2008 by Paintball

[Dyanomo]

In my draft order I didn't say I would send anything to the Defendant e.g. schedule of charges etc, as they already have this several times over.

 

What I haven't sent is the information I will rely on in Court, supporting legislation etc as I'm not quite sure what to send?

 

Thanks for your help with this Paintball. I really appreciate it.

[Dyanomo]

This is a very basic version of the DO.

 

HFC Bank Limited

Draft Order for Directions

 

 

1. "The Defendant shall within 14 days file and serve the following information:"

a) A signed and dated copy of my needs and benefit questionnaire strictly relating to the policy in question.

b) A copy of the Payment Protection Insurance schedule.

c) Statement of PPI premiums paid and any interest charged thereon.

d) Proof HFC Bank Limited advised of alternative insurance with other providers.

e) Certificate of Competence or training relating to staff issuing PPI policies.

 

 

I also included info in post 30. See where I only asked for the Defendant to send paperwork, and not that I would send any.

[Paintball]

Dyanomo if you read this again Draft Direction Order - Consumer Wiki

you'll see that you are obliged as the Claimant to fulfil Part 1, which is all your supporting documents and evidence that you will be relying on to win your case.

 

Part 2 is for the Defendant to fulfil, i.e., send the documents to you with a copy to the court within 14 days of the hearing date.

 

Each party is required within the order to send the other their supporting documents and arguments. You are the one to initiate this Order as you are bringing this claim to court; you send a copy of the Draft Order (which I gather you have already done) with copies of all your docs/supporting evidence to the Defendant so that they can see eaxactly what you are relying on in court, and an exact same copy to the Court so the judge can see what you are relying on. This will help him/her to give directions at the hearing you have ...

 

 

So, to summarise:

 

1. You've prepared the Draft Order for Directions

 

2. You now need to make copies of everything you have outlined in your Part 1 of the Order and send them to a) the Defendant and b) the Court. You need to do this within 14 days of the hearing or your claim will be struck out.

 

3. The Defendant will have received a copy of the Draft Order that you have prepared and will know as per Part 1 what you will be sending to them and what they need to send to you in order to fulfil Part 2 within 14 days of the hearing with a copy to the court, or the claim will be struck out and you win by default.

 

 

If you haven't put anything in Part 1, then may need to start again, in which case, please talk to the Court about whether you need to re-submit the Draft Order as I think you still have time ... don't forget that the court won't yet have the docs you've sent the Defendant and the whole point of the Order is that the judge has a copy of your stuff too!

Edited September 14, 2008 by Paintball
Typos ...

[Dyanomo]

Ok, I think I get it now. I messed up with my Draft Order. I didn't put part one and skipped straight to part 2. I will ring the Court and see what I have to do to resubmit another one. Hopefully it will be as simple as filing another one.

 

Paintball I really appreciate your help. Everyone I have contacted is either away or subject to Tomlin Orders and can't advise. Bad timing!!

[Paintball]

Good luck!

[Dyanomo]

Any ideas on how I should word part 1 of the draft order? I don't want to use the one from the templates library (for bank charges) and find myself ordering something I don't have and is impossible to get!!

[Paintball]

Good grief, haven't you done this yet ?

 

 

Have a look at this and see what you think. The text in black is from the template in the link I gave you a few posts back and relates to bank charges, the red below is my suggestion for a PPI claim:

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

a) A schedule setting out the amount of PPI and interest which is sought, showing the date and amount added to the (loan)

b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

b)Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that the amounts have been added to the (loan)

 

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that PPI was mis-sold and that financial industry regulations and guidelines were breached in so doing.

d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon. If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

d) As above

 

 

See if anyone has anything else to suggest for this ...

Edited September 25, 2008 by Paintball
Typos.

[alanalana]

Hello painty and dyanomo,

 

Have a look at this and see what you think. The text in black is from the template in the link I gave you a few posts back and relates to bank charges, the red below is my suggestion for a PPI claim:

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

a) A schedule setting out the amount of PPI and interest which is sought, showing the date and amount added to the (loan)

b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

b)Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that the amounts have been added to the (loan)

 

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that PPI was mis-sold and that financial industry regulations an guielines were breached in so doing.

d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon. If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

d) As above

 

 

See if anyone has anything else to suggest for this ...

I have a couple of points which may help with this.

Firstly I have recently come upon the Civil Evidence Act 1995 which has now been added to the draft order for directions thread. It is an absolute saver where banks or others cannot produce authenticated copies of CCA etc.

Have a look at this....

General

 

c) copies of Default Notices (if any) issued pursuant to s87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are)

 

d) a copy of any Notice of Assignment to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) relating to the [Claimant’s] [Defendant’s] (whichever you are) account

 

e) if copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

 

(i) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents

(ii) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)

(iii) copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with

(iv) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards.

 

How good is that to get the authenticated documents you ask for:D

 

see these links for more info..

http://lightsol.co.uk/legal.htm

http://www.eimagazine.com/xq/asp/sid.0/articleid.1F44B088-72B9-4119-A5ED-C5DEAE6FBF20/qx/display.htm

http://www.alliancegroup.co.uk/legal-admissibility.html

http://uk.fujitsu.com/web/global/whitepapers/legal.pdf

http://www.document-storage-solutions.co.uk/data-storage-info/legal-admissibility.htm

http://www.tradescanners.com/document_management_legal_admissibility.php

Hope all of this helps you get the legal info you want;)

and remember they have to produce all of the audit trail with full accreditation in Court. How good is that:D

Hope this helps folks that are being fobbed off to make a case.

aa

[Paintball]

The info I've put in my post #64 is for completing Part 1 of the DOD in which Dyanomo will be stating what she will send to the Defendant (and a copy to the Court) to rely on at the Hearing on 30 October.

 

I've put what I feel will be helpful, but as this is a serious matter I was hoping that someone else may have something to add to what I've put.

 

Alanalana, this is really useful info for Part 2 of the DOD; what Dyanomo will be asking the Defendant to provide. I shall make a note of this for my own records

[Dyanomo]

Ok, I am writing it now. I will post it here when I am done.

I would also like to make a request for their commissioninfo relating to PPI. Can I add this on to part 2 or do I need to make a separate request?

[Paintball]

You are using the DOD to obtain whatever info you require from the Defendant in order to prove your case for mis-selling in court, so yes, put this request into Part 2, it is YOUR order

 

Just had a thought; weren't HFC one of the institutions fined for mis-selling PPI? IF so, then using this as evidence of bad practice in your Part 1 would add weight to your case. I shall go have a look-see ...

 

This is what you can use: FSA fines HFC Bank £1.085 million for PPI failings

Edited September 25, 2008 by Paintball

[alanalana]

hello dyanomo,

 

I would also like to make a request for their commission info relating to PPI

 

I am not sure if they will supply the information on their commission having just read posts 69 to 79 on this thread

 

LloydsTSB credit card ppi

 

Perhaps you could ask ukaviator or anothe of the site team?

 

aa

[Dyanomo]

If I did add it in and they don't provide it would it affect the rest of the order?

 

Yes, HFC were fined for misselling 2005-2007. This was taken out in 2001 so not sure if I can still use it or how to word it.

[Dyanomo]

Ok, here is what I have so far.....comments please:

 

Draft Order for Directions

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

 

a) A schedule setting out the amount of PPI and interest which is sought, showing the date and amount added to the loan;

b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that the amounts have been added to the loan;

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that PPI was mis-sold and that financial industry regulations and guidelines were breached in so doing;

d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon. If the Claimant fails to comply with this order the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

2. The Defendant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Claimant and the Court:

 

a) A signed and dated Needs and Benefit Statement strictly relating to the policy in question;

b) A copy of the Payment Protection Insurance Schedule;

c) Statement of PPI premiums paid and any interest charged thereon;

d) Proof HFC Bank Limited advised of alternative insurance with other providers;

e) Certificate of Competence or Training relating to staff issuing PPI policies.

f) Provide evidence of all bonuses and commission based incentives offered to the employees of the defendant in relation to the sale of its products or services and in particular that of payment protection insurance;

g) Provide the sales targets of the employees of the defendant in relation to its products or services and in particular that of payment protection insurance;

h) Disclose if the Defendant employs or operates any system, either automated or manually operated or otherwise, which is used to monitor, check or supervise the sale of payment protection insurance to ensure that errors omissions and misrepresentations are noticed.

 

2.1. If copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in Court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1) (b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

a) A copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents;

b) A copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s);

c) Copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with;

d) Copies of Quality Assurance Accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate the the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate standards.

[Paintball]

Good grief, haven't you done this yet ?

 

 

Have a look at this and see what you think. The text in black is from the template in the link I gave you a few posts back and relates to bank charges, the red below is my suggestion for a PPI claim:

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

a) A schedule setting out the amount of PPI and interest which is sought, showing the date and amount added to the (loan)

b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

b)Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that the amounts have been added to the (loan)

 

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that PPI was mis-sold and that financial industry regulations and guidelines to ensure the fair treatment of customers were breached in so doing.

d) A statement of evidence to show that in breaching FSA regulations and guidelines and consistently failing to take reasonable care in the sale of PPI to its customers, HFC has incurred fines.

e) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon. If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

e) As above

 

 

See if anyone has anything else to suggest for this ...

 

 

Just added a bit more ...

[Dyanomo]

Excellent! I have added that.

 

I am going to post all the info I am going to send them on here. I am not very confident about going to court ( you can probably tell I have stuck my head in the sand for a bit) but I am going to go. I don't want to screw it up over something tiny though!!

[Paintball]

Heehee ...

 

The object of this exercise is for HFC to look at all the evidence you'll be providing in your DOD and think, cor blimey, we haven't got a leg to stand on ... fined by the FSA? Continuing to treat customers badly (including our own Dyanomo), how very dare they

 

[Dyanomo]

lol.

 

Ok, I will be sending

 

1a) Schedule of PPI payments made

 

b) Copy of document relied upon showing amount added to loan

 

 

Edited September 25, 2008 by Dyanomo