Car air con fault bought from dealer 3 months ago

[jamoor]

My brother bought a Mazda 6 from a used car dealer that works from home, on 27/3/08.

 

In the past month or so, the air conditioning has stopped working, I call the trader up as it states "used car warranty" on the invoice (but it seems to say £0.00 for the cost of it)

 

He tells me to go to get it regassed, I look up in the yellow pages for a specialist and take it to him for work, he detects a leak, he writes a report detailing the fault.

 

The trader just says "not my problem, sold as seen, and there is no warranty" IMO this is ridiculous, I bought it as a private individual, surely it's his fault, there is nothing on the paperwork saying sold as seen, fair enough it's 3 months later but I would expect an A/C to last at least 8 years (that's how old my car is)

Edited June 28, 2008 by jamoor

[BankFodder]

You are entitled to a statutory guarantee under the sale of goods act.

This means that the car and its system must be of satisfactory quality and must remain so for a reasonable period of time given the price and other circumstances of the sale.

 

Don't hang around. Send him a letter that you are holding him liable and that you are getting a quote for the work elsehwere.

get the quote

Send him a copy and give him 7 days to accept liability and either to pay the quote or to do the work himself if he has the facility.

 

if he balks in anyway, issue the claim for the value of the quote.

 

Don't bother to do any of this unless you are serious about following it through

[BankFodder]

Your brother will have to sue. you did not buy from the dealer and you have no rights in the matter.

 

Also, you should complain to trading standards under the new CPUT Regs as the trader is acting unfairly by refsuing you your rights. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/146460-consumer-protection-unfair-trading.html

Send the letter to the Trading Standards. It costs nothing but they have the power to prosecute

[jamoor]

Interesting, where should I get the quote from? A franchised dealer or an aircon specialist?

 

The dealer also happens to be around 180 miles away, which makes it a pain

 

I know my brother will have to sue, I am just helping him out

[riget]

I know nothing about the legal stuff but I'm a mechanic, from what you say the air-con did work but has now stopped due to a leak.

You don't say where the leak is, it's possible that a stone has hit the radiator, this would not be covered by any warranty.

Also it's not clear but is this car 8 years old? If it is and it was not sold with a warranty, then the air-con going faulty after a month would not be the dealers fault, air-con systems can and do go faulty on cars well before 8 years old.

This is jusy my opinion, like I said I know nothing about the legal side of things.

[jamoor]

I know nothing about the legal stuff but I'm a mechanic, from what you say the air-con did work but has now stopped due to a leak.

You don't say where the leak is, it's possible that a stone has hit the radiator, this would not be covered by any warranty.

Also it's not clear but is this car 8 years old? If it is and it was not sold with a warranty, then the air-con going faulty after a month would not be the dealers fault, air-con systems can and do go faulty on cars well before 8 years old.

This is jusy my opinion, like I said I know nothing about the legal side of things.

Car is just over three years old.

The leak is coming from a pipe somewhere, I don't think there is physical damage otherwise I am sure he would have said.

 

I don't think they aircon has ever actually worked properly.

[riget]

Ok from a mechanics point of view, the car is over 3 years old so is out of any manufactors warranty, the dealer did not offer any warranty, and in my opinion the air-con could go faulty, so it comes down to, did it work when you first had it, and what would the legal time limit be for it to go wrong.

I think Bankfodder will have to advise you on taking action, but for me if it was working, and now 3 months have past you'll have a hard time getting the dealer to pay for it.

Maybe I'm wrong and Bankfodder will tell you to take legal action.

Did the guy who did the test not say how much it would cost? Maybe if it's not much the dealer would contribute and save any hassle.

[jamoor]

Ok from a mechanics point of view, the car is over 3 years old so is out of any manufactors warranty, the dealer did not offer any warranty, and in my opinion the air-con could go faulty, so it comes down to, did it work when you first had it, and what would the legal time limit be for it to go wrong.

I think Bankfodder will have to advise you on taking action, but for me if it was working, and now 3 months have past you'll have a hard time getting the dealer to pay for it.

Maybe I'm wrong and Bankfodder will tell you to take legal action.

Did the guy who did the test not say how much it would cost? Maybe if it's not much the dealer would contribute and save any hassle.

The guy who looked at it was unwilling to do the work due to the unit bieng in an awkward location,he suggested I take it to a main dealer.

 

It may have worked ok when purchased although not too sure, isn't there some kind of law stating that it has to last a reasonable length of time? I would say it's reasonable that the aircon should last longer then three months, considering the age of the car.

[Conniff]

First off , there is no such thing as - sold as seen - it has no legal standing.

Unless the aircon was not working when you purchased and this was pointed out to you, then it is resonable to expect it to be working.

 

Are you sure this is a dealer working from home and not an individual selling cars on the side.

 

You should get a couple of quotes from the main dealer and an aircon specialist and present him with the lowest.

If he still refuses then you do as Bankfodder has said and send him a letter before action.

 

Also as pointed out, unless you are prepared to go to court over his refusal, then there will be no point in sending the LBA.

 

Don't talk on the phone unless you can record the conversations, and if you want to use any phone recordings, then you must tell him the conversation is being recorded.

Do all future correspondence by letter and send them recorded delivery.

[jamoor]

First off , there is no such thing as - sold as seen - it has no legal standing.

Unless the aircon was not working when you purchased and this was pointed out to you, then it is resonable to expect it to be working.

 

Are you sure this is a dealer working from home and not an individual selling cars on the side.

 

You should get a couple of quotes from the main dealer and an aircon specialist and present him with the lowest.

If he still refuses then you do as Bankfodder has said and send him a letter before action.

 

Also as pointed out, unless you are prepared to go to court over his refusal, then there will be no point in sending the LBA.

 

Don't talk on the phone unless you can record the conversations, and if you want to use any phone recordings, then you must tell him the conversation is being recorded.

Do all future correspondence by letter and send them recorded delivery.

 

Nothing was pointed out to me, I am fairly sure he was a proper dealer, as he had trade plates and has a proper website and took payment by my debit card.

 

I have already sent him a letter recorded delivery explaining the problem and giving him 10 days to respond.

 

"going to court" isn't too much of a difficulty as it's only filling in a few forms, i spoke to him on the phone briefly but he was just being difficult so have switched to letters now.

 

I will get quotes on Monday for the car.

[jamoor]

OK, the garage have rejected the recorded delivery letter and it has come back to me!

 

What now?

[Conniff]

OK, the garage have rejected the recorded delivery letter and it has come back to me!

 

That's sounds like it is not the first time this has happened as no one rejects recorded mail unless they are suspicious of what it contains.

 

Seems your brothers only recourse now it to issue a claim in the small claims court (£30) for the amount that the dealer will charge to do the job.

 

You must get a guaranteed quote for the work and explain to them that as it is going to court, they must not find any 'extra' work to do after they have given you the quote, it must stand as given.

[jamoor]

I have a quote from my local Mazda Dealer for £160 odd, should I take the car again?

 

I have called consumer direct, and they say send it with proof of postage, not sure what to do about that.

[Conniff]

I would check with the dealer that the £160 is the maximum it can come to as you don't want to be out of pocket.

 

You certainly can send it as CD suggest. Make a copy of it, no need to send the original, and get a proof of postage from the post office instead of making it recorded or something he has to sign for.

 

Give a firm date of response or it could drag out, I think 14 days is fair enough, if you don't hear at the end of that time then you will have done about all you can to get him to pay and you know the rest.

 

I would start to make a list and gather together all the paperwork you have of what has been said and done with dates and names in case you have to take it further.

[jamoor]

Would this be ok?

I complained about this to you on the 27th June 2008 by telephone and I have sent a recorded delivery letter on the 27th of June, which was rejected upon delivery. I believe I have made all reasonable attempts to contact you.

[Conniff]

Include the details of the car the date that you purchased it and the dates and methods that you contacted him.

 

Refer to the sale of goods act 1979(amended) and say that as he has refused to repair it under the above act and that further correspondence, quote the dates and mention the returned recorded delivery, have failed to be responded to.

 

Include a copy of the quote and give him 14 days to respond or you will entrust it to the dealer to repair and will issue a court summons for recovery of the repair bill.

 

You can also mention that the bill will be increased by inclusion of the court costs.

[Prolix]

Ok from a mechanics point of view, the car is over 3 years old so is out of any manufactors warranty, the dealer did not offer any warranty, and in my opinion the air-con could go faulty, so it comes down to, did it work when you first had it, and what would the legal time limit be for it to go wrong.

I think Bankfodder will have to advise you on taking action, but for me if it was working, and now 3 months have past you'll have a hard time getting the dealer to pay for it.

Maybe I'm wrong and Bankfodder will tell you to take legal action.

Did the guy who did the test not say how much it would cost? Maybe if it's not much the dealer would contribute and save any hassle.

 

I'm afraid I agree with Riget. From a legal point of view, Lord Denning said that buyers of second hand cars must expect that sooner or later things will go wrong and in the absence of an express warranty, he will have no recourse (Bartlet V sydney Marcus 1965, Court of Appeal). Goods when sold should be durable, but the same standard cannot be applied to second-hand goods as would be applied to new ones. I think that only 3 months use of air con is unfortunate, but might welll be a case of bad luck.

I wouldn't advise a court action on these circumstances; the chances of winning aren't great. It would be impossible to prove that the goods didn't conform to contract 3 months ago. Some intervening event may have made the air con faulty.

 

For how long should a car dealer be responsible for faults developing? I suggest that it would be a very short time indeed, a couple of weeks perhaps (in the absence of a warranty).

[Conniff]

Prolix's post has got me to read through the complete thread again. I think I will have to agree with that. 3 months is a long time.

 

It also depends on the word 'leak'. It's very rare that an ac does not require regassing or topping up at some stage but that doesn't mean there is a hole in it somewhere, it can pass the drive spindle of the compressor, but that wouldn't be classed as a leak.

 

I also think that another fridge engineer should be given a chance to quote.

[jamoor]

There is a leak in a pipe somewhere, some more information has come to light actually, I paid some of the money by CREDIT card, does that mean the credit card company has some responsibility in this?

[Prolix]

In general your card company is liable for breaches of contract even if the transaction was only part funded by your card. They would be liable for the full amount (provided you put over £100 on the card) of any purchase.

 

The problem would be proving a breach of contract as I mentioned earlier.

[jamoor]

I'm afraid I agree with Riget. From a legal point of view, Lord Denning said that buyers of second hand cars must expect that sooner or later things will go wrong and in the absence of an express warranty, he will have no recourse (Bartlet V sydney Marcus 1965, Court of Appeal). Goods when sold should be durable, but the same standard cannot be applied to second-hand goods as would be applied to new ones. I think that only 3 months use of air con is unfortunate, but might welll be a case of bad luck.

I wouldn't advise a court action on these circumstances; the chances of winning aren't great. It would be impossible to prove that the goods didn't conform to contract 3 months ago. Some intervening event may have made the air con faulty.

 

For how long should a car dealer be responsible for faults developing? I suggest that it would be a very short time indeed, a couple of weeks perhaps (in the absence of a warranty).

 

Can he claim anything against me if I lose?(court fees etc)

[Prolix]

What would be the value of your claim?

[jamoor]

What would be the value of your claim?

£200 would be the max I would have thought.

[Prolix]

If in Scotland (I'm not sure if it's the same in England) for claims up to £200 no expenses are awarded to either side. This is so claims are not discouraged on the basis of prohibitive costs. Even above this amount the maximum available in expenses is £300 if your claim was £3000.

[gwc1000]

Being a car dealer, it possibly could be argued that I am biased, however in the circumstances you describe I don't think you have any hope of winning a Court case and I would advise against it. We are not talking about a safety issue or a major mechanical fault here. You admit that the air con was working when the car was purchased, so it would be pointless in arguing that it was faulty from the start. You must remember that three months have passed since. I feel that any Judge would consider this as fair wear and tear. I think that you have to weigh up the cost to yourself wasting a day at Court and the cost of the case itself. Wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run just to pay the £160?

You always do have the possibility in any Court action that the other party doesn't turn up and you would win by default.

As a matter of interest what type and age of car is it and how much did it cost?