H.O.L Test case appeal. Judgement Declared. ***See Announcements***

[fergal71]

MSE money expert has issued some (some) guidance , mainly for financial hardship cases.... this needs to be stepped up in some way those with cases in court or those not yet in financial hardship and all those who just pay these charges and are unaware to be helped....... Just the other day a family friend brother passed away , when his relatives looked at his bank statement they found in 12 months nearly £1200 was taken out of his account in charges.... He was an elderly guy and he just kept moving money from his savings to make sure he had money.... He did not know about CAG, or court case, or even that he could do much about it... I dont even think he read his statements. How sad, something has to be done immediately time for talking and arguing has to stop... They are laughing at us all and many are on here giving obstructive or keep calm advice....not for me.... I advise every one to switch banks and let them chase for overdrafts, loans, credit card debts etc... especially if you are not likely to want or need credit in the future (OAP's) this will give them some pain , like they have inflicted on us and with support of regulators, courts are just putting 2 fingers up to us all.....

[means2anend]

MSE money expert has issued some (some) guidance , mainly for financial hardship cases.... this needs to be stepped up in some way those with cases in court or those not yet in financial hardship and all those who just pay these charges and are unaware to be helped....... Just the other day a family friend brother passed away , when his relatives looked at his bank statement they found in 12 months nearly £1200 was taken out of his account in charges.... He was an elderly guy and he just kept moving money from his savings to make sure he had money.... He did not know about CAG, or court case, or even that he could do much about it... I dont even think he read his statements. How sad, something has to be done immediately time for talking and arguing has to stop... They are laughing at us all and many are on here giving obstructive or keep calm advice....not for me.... I advise every one to switch banks and let them chase for overdrafts, loans, credit card debts etc... especially if you are not likely to want or need credit in the future (OAP's) this will give them some pain , like they have inflicted on us and with support of regulators, courts are just putting 2 fingers up to us all.....

 

 

I received this in my email this afternoon

 

Bank Charges Reclaiming: How to get £1,000s back updated after Supreme Court Ruling...

 

m2ae

[means2anend]

Caggers watch the *anker in the background

 

http://m.uk.yahoo.com/

 

rgds

 

m2ae

[landy_alert]

MSE money expert has issued some (some) guidance , mainly for financial hardship cases.... this needs to be stepped up in some way those with cases in court or those not yet in financial hardship and all those who just pay these charges and are unaware to be helped....... Just the other day a family friend brother passed away , when his relatives looked at his bank statement they found in 12 months nearly £1200 was taken out of his account in charges.... He was an elderly guy and he just kept moving money from his savings to make sure he had money.... He did not know about CAG, or court case, or even that he could do much about it... I dont even think he read his statements. How sad, something has to be done immediately time for talking and arguing has to stop... They are laughing at us all and many are on here giving obstructive or keep calm advice....not for me.... I advise every one to switch banks and let them chase for overdrafts, loans, credit card debts etc... especially if you are not likely to want or need credit in the future (OAP's) this will give them some pain , like they have inflicted on us and with support of regulators, courts are just putting 2 fingers up to us all.....

 

As Fergal has pointed out, most of the current guidance on MSE is for claims yet to start and those in financial hardship.

 

Unfortunately I had a claim in with the FOS for financial hardship prior to filing at court. Our situation fitted most of the criteria, particularly priority debt arrears and substantial drop in household income - with a drop of over 60%. Having been pushed from pillar to post by LTSB with no hope of success, my OH was forced out of self-employment back into the workplace and we subsequently asked the FOS to put the claim on hold. I then filed at court - which I now deeply regret.

 

The 'new' FOS criteria includes being stuck in a cycle of charges you cannot break out of - charges on charges - this would have fitted my situation perfectly and I may have stood a chance again with the FOS, but instead I'm lumbered with the court route and potential huge costs if I lose:sad:

[adamc6671]

Having read through MSE's pages, it does indeed seem that their 'new' material is for genuine hardship cases, via the Ombudsman, be it new or stayed cases.

 

There seems no way forward yet for those of us with claims on hold in Court. Having also read the Govan Law Centre's (GLC's) pages, who are working very hard on a way forward, it seems that it is a hugely complex legal process which is going to take time to sort out. I can understand, I think, why that is so - the OFT seem to want no further part in it, so we have lost their resources, the Banks have almost infinite legal resources at their disposal (at our cost!), and therefore any case that GLC (and others) come up with under UTCCR Section 5 and Consumer Credit Act 1974 (as ammended) or any other legislation, has to be so strong as to be able to stand up to the banks and their legal experts, otherwise the consumer (us!) stands to loose massively should we end up on the loosing side in any future test case. I'd be very interested to read what others think!

Edited February 3, 2010 by adamc6671

[Poppay2]

MSE money expert has issued some (some) guidance , mainly for financial hardship cases.... this needs to be stepped up in some way those with cases in court or those not yet in financial hardship and all those who just pay these charges and are unaware to be helped....... Just the other day a family friend brother passed away , when his relatives looked at his bank statement they found in 12 months nearly £1200 was taken out of his account in charges.... He was an elderly guy and he just kept moving money from his savings to make sure he had money.... He did not know about CAG, or court case, or even that he could do much about it... I dont even think he read his statements. How sad, something has to be done immediately time for talking and arguing has to stop... They are laughing at us all and many are on here giving obstructive or keep calm advice....not for me.... I advise every one to switch banks and let them chase for overdrafts, loans, credit card debts etc... especially if you are not likely to want or need credit in the future (OAP's) this will give them some pain , like they have inflicted on us and with support of regulators, courts are just putting 2 fingers up to us all.....

I tried moving bank account recently, but my application to B'clys was rejected.

I'm now worried that as A&L and Abbey are now Santndr, that they may take those charges for Abb from AL account, even if they are not supposed to, I wouldnt be surprised if they still did it!

P.

[Poppay2]

I'm prob making old Abb a bit cross by not yet responding to their threatening letters, think as this one was held by them, will end up writing to say that I am still contesting their charges ....

Currently, waiting to see what develops before I do.

im off for a cuppa tea

P

[means2anend]

I like my straws today, keep grasping at them lol.

 

Have read a bit of The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading 2008 and I keep coming back to this section:

 

Aggressive commercial practices

 

7.—(1) A commercial practice is aggressive if, in its factual context, taking account of all of its features and circumstances—

(a) it significantly impairs or is likely significantly to impair the average consumer’s freedom of choice or conduct in relation to the product concerned through the use of harassment, coercion or undue influence; and

(b) it thereby causes or is likely to cause him to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise.

(2) In determining whether a commercial practice uses harassment, coercion or undue influence account shall be taken of—

(a) its timing, location, nature or persistence;

(b) the use of threatening or abusive language or behaviour;

© the exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune or circumstance of such gravity as to impair the consumer’s judgment, of which the trader is aware, to influence the consumer’s decision with regard to the product;

(d) any onerous or disproportionate non-contractual barrier imposed by the trader where a consumer wishes to exercise rights under the contract, including rights to terminate a contract or to switch to another product or another trader; and

(e) any threat to take any action which cannot legally be taken.

(3) In this regulation—

(a) “coercion” includes the use of physical force; and

(b) “undue influence” means exploiting a position of power in relation to the consumer so as to apply pressure, even without using or threatening to use physical force, in a way which significantly limits the consumer’s ability to make an informed decision.

 

Have highlighted the bits that stood out and my interpretation of it.

 

On 7(1)(a) im being drawn to the consumers 'Freedom of Choice' and the rights they have (or not) as to whether to make the decision to allow a transaction to progress through their account that may result in them going overdrawn. By my logical (or illogical) thinking, we do not have that choice unless we cancel a DD upon realisation it may take us overdrawn prior to the transaction. As the banks state in the T & C's it is at their discretion as to whether to allow a payment to go through or not, if this is the case then, us, the consumer, has had that freedom of choice taken away from us. This then places us in a position to incur charges because of the banks decision (not ours) and so the vicious cycle starts.

 

In the event that realisation is not made as to whether we may go into an unauthorised overdraft or not, the bank, by way of authorising this payment must surely put them in a position of power by the pure fact they authorised it and us, the consumer, were not even given an option to make an informed decision as to whether we would like it paid or not (where was the transactional decision? we were not allowed to make one, the bank did it for us?)

 

I would also like to know who is classed as an 'average' consumer? How do they define that?

 

Ok thats my thoughts on that bit, any other views would be most interesting

 

xx

 

'ere u r mate or matess

 

average consumer all explained in this OFT CPUTR 2008 Guide to consumers

 

 

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations - The Office of Fair Trading

 

these and unfair relationship test overlap...It explains the tests as well as professional diligence in laymans' terms..no offence meant there

 

download both pdf files...the first file is from the perspective of businesses and second from perspective of consumer

 

 

rgds

 

m2ae:cool:

Edited February 3, 2010 by means2anend

[fergal71]

hi poppay try natwest basic step account or halifax basic they should not refuse and they can be done online.

 

also landy how far has case gone , maybe if not gone to far it can be cancelled and try ombudsman....

 

what about the rest of my thread when are we to discuss on this thread a more productive direct form of action.... they will only listen to majority when they cause some problems for them.... can site team discuss and put something on front page we can all vote for and show our support for and then carry it through... democratic and supported

[landy_alert]

also landy how far has case gone , maybe if not gone to far it can be cancelled and try ombudsman....

 

 

Thanks Fergal:)

 

I did wonder about that, but wasn't sure if that could be done. My claim was filed at court last October, LTSB filed their defence and I sent in my AQ - the day before the SC judgment as it happens. Early in December I got orders from the DJ saying I have till 26/2/10 to apply for my stay to be lifted...............so not sure if I am too late to go back to FOS?

 

Also I have had a read around this afternoon on MSE and it appears that a member there approached the FOS today regarding a hardship claim and was advised that if it related to an account no longer in use they wouldn't take it on. My account was in use until LTSB closed it after I approached them for a refund of charges, so again not certain if the FOS would be able to help me. Then again MSE's guide does say if you 'are/were stuck in a cycle of charges you cannot break out of' (which implies past charges as well as present), you can go to the Ombudsman.

 

It might be worth me approaching them to find out - I suppose its worth a try. Will let you know how I get on!

 

Thanks again,

 

Landy x

[kennyh]

The CPUTR and Unfair Commercial Practices Directive

(UCPD) info looks good, anyone any idea why the OFT never went down this route?

[emandcole]

The CPUTR and Unfair Commercial Practices Directive

(UCPD) info looks good, anyone any idea why the OFT never went down this route?

 

Would it be because the bankers asked them nicely not to? Me...cynical?

[missdpd]

'ere u r mate or matess

 

average consumer all explained in this OFT CPUTR 2008 Guide to consumers

 

 

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations - The Office of Fair Trading

 

these and unfair relationship test overlap...It explains the tests as well as professional diligence in laymans' terms..no offence meant there

 

download both pdf files...the first file is from the perspective of businesses and second from perspective of consumer

 

 

rgds

 

m2ae:cool:

 

matess..........but only on a good day

 

thanks for that, will take a toot tomorrow, my brain has been frazzled enough by all the thinking I have been doing today, can't take much more lol.

 

xx

[kennyh]

Way back in 2006 I joined the CAG forum and found it (as our American Colonial cousins might say) 'mind blowing'.

Since that time I've had so much advice and encouragement and, passing the benefits of this on to family and friends, I can say that Banky, Booky and SO MANY others have given critical relief and succour to dozens who really, but really, needed help. Unfortunately for the CAG, the results largely manifested in debts wiped out or reduced and so a great deal of liquidity wasn't realised so we couldn't 'chip in' as often as we wished, although we have whenever the opportunity presented itself.

We're now fast approaching a significant watershed (I alone have 6 cases withe RBS on the '8 week' deadline and 5 Court cases where the court deadlines are reached before month's end.

Multiply this by many thousands since many(most) members will be in similar straits and clearly something needs doing.

I realise that, yes, we're still holding breath for GLC and that a few straws

have floated into our grasp from the same (and now missdpd has opened an interesting avenue particularly since I'm fairly sure GLC has recommended attacks on a veriety of fronts).

I also saw the look on Banky's face following the SCOJ decision and appreciate the body blow he took, however, having helped SO many folk so far I would urge him not to give up now and I'm asking can we start on a 'band-aid' course of action since I WILL go to court (and I ain't so stupid that I'll relish the prospect but it's got to be done) but I wish to turn up with a bit more than my d**k in my hand (sorry ladies).

I realise that, quite rightly, CAG has been asking all to wait (In an ideal world we do want to pick our targets and battleground) but many of us are down to the wire.

I've recently found that I'm likely to be exempt court fees (zummit to do with being a wrinkley) and am prepared to do battle on costs where the opposition see fit to enter a QC into the fray - County Courts, level playing fields - poor old LiP - blood out of a stone!!

The information given on the forums is, and has always been, prefixed or suffixed with IMO or IMHO and that is gonna have to be good enough but, whilst there has been some sound thinking on this thread, I, for one, need a bit more than fragmented fog to go on.

So c'mon CAGGERS lets go for it since by the end of this month we're ALL in the mire.

Edited February 4, 2010 by kennyh
spelling

[srfrench]

Hear hear Ken.........spot on and I won't even say I'm right behind you....I would like to think that all us CAGgers stand shoulder to shoulder and in a perfect line!

 

I agree with this "Fog-Of-War" business but hopefully if we don't get to pick our battleground and battle then we should at least be able to match the Banks blow for blow.

 

I had some encouraging news this morning regarding my N244 application to the Harrogate Courts nearly a week ago asking the Court to lift the stay and for permission to submit an amended POC withing 2 weeks of my draft order being officially accepted and sent. This in theory gave me between 3-4 weeks from Friday last week to see if an amended POC will be posted up here. Either way it doesn't really matter as this morning I received a letter from the Court stating:

 

" I am writing to your application filed in this case on 28th Jan 2010, the application was reffered to Judge XXXXX who also asks that a draft of the proposed amended POC be attached to the application. On receipt of the amended POC the application will be reffered back to the District JUdge"

 

 

So I have even more time and I can now relax insofar as having unclenched my rear and I now have 2 buttocks!

 

 

My Court suffice to say appears to appreciate (I hope) the issues here?

 

Fingers crossed.

[kennyh]

My missus reckons I'm big enough in the rear to have 2 buttocks - mind you over the years (and because I will only help folk and NOT charge them) she's ripped me a few new *********.

[srfrench]

KENNY!!!!!!! I'm shocked....such language....such profanity....hell of a missus too

[InformedSearcher]

No idea if anyone else are having calls.....

 

I got a call this morning from some financial place in Manchester asking me if I owed bank charges and the like. They said they could help get them back which I dismissed. They knew my name and address which surprised me.

 

Michael

[means2anend]

Would it be because the bankers asked them nicely not to? Me...cynical?

 

 

I cannot understand why the OFT did not include alternative grounds S5(1) in addition to S6(2) at the time...so much time and costs could have been saved.

 

 

We would be somewhat out of that 'fog of war'

 

I cant understand it... :?

[adamc6671]

Bankfodder's very clear and concise write-up on where we are now, posted here -

 

The Consumer Forums - The Bank Charges decision - where to now.

 

seems to signal the end of a mass approach to bank charge reclaiming. I'd be very interested in what others think.

[hilaryfrances]

Well I for one am thinking of throwing in the towell, I think the courts got fed up with these cases and I dont think we will be looked on favourably, even though we know we are in the right. I am so fed up as I was so close to getting my money back. I am wondering what to do I want to fight on if there is a chance but I dont want to pump more money into a lost cause. I just dont know what to do.

[Bookworm]

The CPUTR and Unfair Commercial Practices Directive

(UCPD) info looks good, anyone any idea why the OFT never went down this route?

Well, in all fairness, the test case started in July 07, the CPUT Regs didn't come out until 2008, it could have been tricky...

[fergal71]

what now????? come on people lets grow a back bone.... Jesus look at the media some **** got when they wanted to march at wooton basset....

Surely we can come up with some way of making somebody sort this travesty out.... my idea would be for all those people who will never need credit again.. ie pensioners etc.... to move to one designated bank and move all in payments to it and then just forget about their debts.... I am not a pensioner but I also am planning this , let them chase me for 6 years or so.... I am tired of spending hundreds of hours on CAG and getting more frustrated without taking action.... why did we let the oft fail..... this is getting worse by the day and this is what they want.....

[Bookworm]

Bankfodder's very clear and concise write-up on where we are now, posted here -

 

The Consumer Forums - The Bank Charges decision - where to now.

 

seems to signal the end of a mass approach to bank charge reclaiming. I'd be very interested in what others think.

"unreasonably prioritising the bank's own interests over those of the customer when dealing with customer problems".

This IMO may be the lynchpin.

 

For example, my bank recently bounced a payment and charged me £8. How much was the payment for? £8.10.

 

I now still owe the original company £8.10 AND I am down £8. Did I have a choice? No. They arbitrarily decide to pay themselves a fee, regardless as to whether this will put me in a worse position than before. AND where I could cancel a standing order if I knew I am going to be short, I have no such luxury with the bank, they will take their charges first and always with no consideration whatsoever to how it will affect the customer.

 

This is the approach I am planning to take when I go up against [a bank ;-)] soon, as it happens, I have a very good example of them charging me when their interest rates took me over, and then the charge itself took me overlimit the next month, and so on and so forth... the totality of the charges is down to them dipping in my account whether I liked it or not.

[landy_alert]

Well I for one am thinking of throwing in the towell, I think the courts got fed up with these cases and I dont think we will be looked on favourably, even though we know we are in the right. I am so fed up as I was so close to getting my money back. I am wondering what to do I want to fight on if there is a chance but I dont want to pump more money into a lost cause. I just dont know what to do.

 

Me too HF - It's already cost me £425 in court fees and the thought of having to pay the bank's extortionate legal costs if I lose is adding insult to injury:(