Natwest/Shakespeare claimform £29K - merged OD & loan - help!!

[42man]

Grad i'm not experienced in these advanced stages of court fights/defences, send PT a Private Message, but in the message just send him a link to your thread....

[42man]

You're doing great so far by the way...be strong !!!

[pt2537]

So no documents have been supplied then?

 

Hmm, im a wee bit tied up at the mo, but i will look back this evening

 

i think i need to read the whole thread to see what is going on exactley before i can say anymore

 

regards

paul

[Grad98]

Ok thanks Paul - I look forward to hearing from you. And no... no documents received despite a CCA request (prior to legal action), A CPR request, a holding defence requesting the documentation, and a completed allocation questionnaire requesting the documentation.

[pt2537]

Hi, the above post, have those directions actually been ordered by the court or is it the Solicitors application

 

if the directions have been ordered, then the links below will help

 

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n265_1005.pdf disclosure by list form

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex305.pdf guidance notes

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/124572-hfc-no-agreement-amended-6.html#post1347693

 

this thread should help also

[citizenB]

Surely, if the other side havent responded to your CPR and CCA requests, then you wont be able to file a complete defence ?

[Grad98]

The above directions were requested by the solicitors. The only order the court has given is that they have extended the Solicitors date to file their defence.

 

I agree - I cannot file a full complete defence at this point in time but I'm not sure what I can do further at this point.

[citizenB]

You could phone the court on monday and explain that the other side arent co-operating and ask them for guidance

[Grad98]

I think I will do just that - I have also decided to write a letter to the courts, as well as to the original claimant Natwest, to advise them that of the solicitors actions. i.e. that they are employing stalling techniques by claiming they did not receive a full copy of my (holding) defence, from the courts when in fact they would have received a copy from me.

 

Following that, I will phone the courts and keep you updated.

 

Thanks

[Doodledeb]

Hi Grad 98

 

We have just received our first letter today from Shakespear Putsman - same as you we are in a DMP with CCCS and already have a charging order and major hassle with Nationwide credit card, so really could do with some help on how to deal with this Nat West issue.

 

What has happened sice 23rd June - please advise, so we know what to do.

 

Thanks

[Grad98]

Things haven't been going to well since the 23rd June to be honest and I'm hoping I can get some advice on how to proceed.

 

The Claimant (Shakespeare Putsman for Natwest) got an extension to reply my holding defence till the 29th July. I objected and applied for this to be set aside, but it appears the court did not acknowledge this.

 

On the 29th July (by fax) Shakespeare Putsman submitted their reply by fax. It is extremely legal and I'm not sure how I should respond to their reply (If at all). It addresses various points of my holding defence and seems to indicate that CPR and CCA requests are not relevant and the claimant avers that the agreements are enforceable. I can post the contents of their Reply tomorrow.

 

On 4th August, the courts wrote to advise the claim has been transferred to Central London County Court along with the following terms;

 

It is ordered that;

 

1) The claim is allocated to the Multi Track

 

2) Disclosure of documents shall be dealt with as follows;

a) Both Parties shall give to each other standard disclosure of documents by serving copies together with a disclosure statement by 4pm 26th August 2008.

b) And request to inspect the original of a copy document shall be complied with by 4pm 8th September 2008.

 

3) Both parties shall by 4pm, 9th September 2008, serve on each other the witn ess statments of themselves and all witnesses (other than expert witnesses) on whom they intend to rely.

 

4) No party may rely on or adduce evidence of any witness whose statement has not been served in accordance with this Order without further permission of the Court.

 

5) The case is transferred to the Central London Civil Justice Centre for directions

 

6) Because the Order has been made by the court without considering representation from the parties, the parties have the right to apply to have the order set aside, varied or stayed. A party wishing to make an application must send or deliver the application to the court (together with the appropriate fee) to arrive within 7 days of service of this order.

So I have written to the Courts today to have the order set aside on the basis that my previous objection request to the order that gave Shakespeare Putsman an extension to reply, set aside was not acknowledged. Furthermore as SP have not sent the documents requested under CPR, CCA, holding defence and allocation questionnaire draft directions etc, they have already had ample time to provide the documents requested so should not be granted any further time. I doubt it will make any difference as the Courts do not appear to be concerned with set aside orders and have to assume and prepare as such.

 

My question now is what do I do going forward, What are the standard disclosure documents and disclosure statments we are meant to file.

What is the witness statement I am meant file.

 

Could anybody with some experience give me some directions on what I should be doing to handle this and next steps. I am getting very worried at how this is progressing. Are SP able to make me bankrupt if the courts rule in their favour? It is very worrying for me given I am managing all my debts in a DMP (including this Natwest one), yet they are the only creditor determined to fight me to the end.

 

I look forward to your helpful responses as usual.

 

Thanks

Grad

[pt2537]

Hi,

 

How did you make your applications to set aside? was it on the N244 and did you pay the fee etc?

[Grad98]

Hi Paul - for my first application to set aside the extension of the claimant to reply on 29th July, I simply wrote in to the courts to object. I had no idea I had to pay a fee. All the Court order said was " Upon the courts own motion, the Court has made this order of its own iniaitive without a hearing. If yhou object to the order you must make an application to have it set aside, varied or stayed within 7 days of receiving it'.

 

So I didnt even know I had to pay a fee and the courts did not contact me to advise.

 

For my second set aside request that I intended to post tomorrow (whereby the court has transferred to London and gives orders that the case is on multitrack and orders disclosure of documents), I have a cheque of £40 to send along with my letter. Should the set aside request be on a certain form (I notice you mention N244) rather than just a letter?

 

Or should I just forget about trying to do a set aside request and concentrate on what the Court has ordered (detailed in my post above)?

 

Thanks

[Grad98]

For your information - this is a copy of the letter I intended to send tomorrow to have the order set aside: However, if you think this is a waste of time and will not get me anywhere, please let me know and I will save my £40!

OBJECTION TO COURT ORDER – SET ASIDE REQUEST

 

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I write in connection with my previous letter dated 17th July 2008, sent by recorded delivery to Barnet Court to object to the Barnet Court Order dated 15th July 2008, providing the Claimant a third extension until the 29th July 2008, to reply my holding defence. I also write in connection with the subsequent Court Order from Barnet Court dated 4th August 2008.

 

In relation to the Court Order dated 15th July 2008, whereby the Court decided on its own iniaitive to give the Claimant an additional extension to the 29th July 2008, to provide a detailed reply to the defense. I was given 7 days to make an application if I objected to have the order set aside, varied or stayed. Please see copy of the court letter to myself. Appendix 1

 

I attach a copy of my objection letter below and proof of sending (on the 21st July – within the 7 day right to reply period) and receipt by recorded delivery. Appendix 2

 

Barnet Court did not respond to my set aside request and on the 29th July the Claimant submitted their reply by fax. I have been advised the case has been transferred to London for a hearing.

 

However, I believe, given my application to set aside the extension to the 29th July has not been considered or acknowledged, this ruling is unfair to the defendant.

 

I respectfully point out that my objection letter followed (within the given time limits) of what Barnet Court instructed me to do if I object to the order.

I respectfully point out that Barnet Court did receive my objection letter as indicated by proof of postage and being signed for by a J. Annison.

I respectully point out that my request to set aside was dated 17th July 2008 and not actioned or acknowledged, sent before the Claimants defence of 29th July 2008.

 

Further to the Claimants reply, Barnet Court has ordered that the case be transferred to the Central London County Court. An order dated 4th August 2008, gave certain terms;

- That both parties shall give to each other standard disclosure of documents by 26th August 2008.

 

However, I respectfully point out that the Claimant has still not provided the necessary documentation for me to file a full defence as requested as follows;

- a copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement as requested in my letter to them dated 2nd April 2008

- the documents requested under my letter citing Civil Procedure Rules to provide all relevant records and documentations as requested in my letter to them dated 9th April 2008

- Nor have they respended to my holding defence dated 2nd May 2008 requesting such documentation

- Nor have they responded to my allocation questionnaire and my draft order for directions dated 22nd May 2008 requesting necessary documentation.

 

Given the Claimant has had ample time to provide the necessary documentation and given that it appears my original objection request to have the court order providing the Claimant with a third extension to reply set aside appears not to have been considered.

 

I hereby respectfully request that the case is set aside.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Grad98

[citizenB]

Do you have a copy of the agreement at all. Or have they just failed to produce it ?. Without seeing it, how does anyone know if it is enforceable ?

[Grad98]

No copy of the agreement as they have completely failed to produce it despite all my requests.

 

Do you think I should go ahead and send the above letter today to request the case set aside?

 

What should I be doing next in terms of the order the court has given for disclosure of documents and disclosure statements and witness statements?

 

Thanks,

Grad

[42man]

Gracefully request that the judge make an order to pay your costs too !!!

[citizenB]

Hi,

 

How did you make your applications to set aside? was it on the N244 and did you pay the fee etc?

 

No copy of the agreement as they have completely failed to produce it despite all my requests.

 

Do you think I should go ahead and send the above letter today to request the case set aside?

 

What should I be doing next in terms of the order the court has given for disclosure of documents and disclosure statements and witness statements?

 

Thanks,

Grad

 

Aha, I didnt realise you hadnt received anything from them. I am wondering if your first set aside didnt produce any result.. perhaps you should make this request on the form that PT has suggested it might be taken more seriously.

[paulwlton]

What date did you take the loan out?

 

Where have your accounts being processed?

 

Have you made a SAR?

 

How much was original loan for.

 

PW

[Grad98]

OK thanks - will put my new set aside request on the N244 and see what happens. Will let you know!

[Sparkie1723]

We are back in the realms of the Wilson ruling again......In the POC they have stated that the "loans" are regulated CCA agreement loans....therefore in order to get judgement they have to produce

 

a) a copy of the fully executed agreements containing all the prescribed terms and conditions or

 

b) a copy of the unexecuted agreement containing all the prescibed terms and conditions with .....just your signature on......to get the court to enforce it under section 65 of the CCA 1974.

 

 

If they can't do any of these they will not get judgement.

 

How did they change your overdraft into a CCA loan agreement did they tell you or have they just gone ahead and done it.?

 

sparkie

[Grad98]

They just went ahead and started calling the overdraft a loan in subsequent documents.

 

Thats good to know about the CCA.

 

So now, do I need to start to prepare disclosure documents and disclosure statements for the 26th August as per the court order?

 

Or do I just sit tight and see if they action my set aside request first?

 

Thanks

Grad

[Grad98]

Well my set aside request was not granted as the judge said to me, Shakespeare Putsman can simply start the process again but he seriously warned the barrister representing them and ordered them to pay my application fee back!

 

What had happenned was Two days before we were due in court, SP contacted the court by fax and said they were not aware that the trial had been moved to London and directions to provide standard disclousure documents had been given (thus they had not done it). I wrote to the courts to let them know that I believed that SP were simply carrying out time wasting techniques to frustrate proceedings.

 

Anyway, we were still ordered to come in for further directions. Upon the Judge questioning the barrister representing SP, it appeared that the barrister DID have a copy of the letter advising change of court and draft directions. I.E. the solicitors from SP were lying. They have been ordered to write in and give a full explanantion of this.

 

So thats one good thing that the judge has seen their true colours. Anyway, we have some new draft directions now ; The main ones being;

 

Each party shall give to the other parties standard disclosure of documents on form N265 by 20th Oct

 

All requests for inspection of a document by 30 Nov

 

All parties shall serve statememnts of witnesses of fact by 30 Nov

 

The claimant do prepare and file trial bundle in accordance with the practise direction to part 39CPR to be lodged with court not more than 7 days or less than 3 days before trial date

 

The Claimant solicitor do liaise with defendent and file completed listing questionnaire.

 

 

Now my question please as I am certainly no legal eagle is what should I be doing/ stating in respect of the disclosure statemements and witness statements. ANY advice is well appreciated.

 

Grad98

[surfaceagentx20]

One thing I recommend you do is post to this site before a hearing, not after it. If ever there was an opportunity to get proper directions for the prompt disclosure of specific documents it was today. The directions order was not especially advantageous was it? You still do not have an order for specific disclosure of either agreement, yet the darn things are expressly pleaded in the Particulars of Claim.

 

What you should be doing now is collating all of the documents concerned with the issues in the case. Get them all together and put them in chronological order. Once you've done produce a text list of them giving each document [1] a number, [2] a date and [3] a brief description like 'letter from Claimant to Defendant'. Then when you've done the list in full, post the list to this site and we'll have a look at it to see whether it is up to specification.

 

x20

[Grad98]

You are right X20, I should have posted before I attended a directions hearing - won't be making that mistake again. I just hope that I can argue as the PoC claims the debts were regulated by the CCA, they will need to produce it to enforce the claim.

 

Anyway, this is the disclosure list I have put together. I have not mentioned that the debt was in a DMP prior to them to taking legal action as I dont think that is something I want to rely on in Court. I just started from when I requested the CCA.

 

Please take a look and let me know if this is okay. I also looked at some other peoples threads at their disclosure list and used similar authorities and case laws. Is this okay?

 

Thanks as always for your assitance;

 

(A) Copy of formal request, from Defendent to Shakespeare Putsman. requesting a copy of executed Consumer Credit Agreement under S.78 Consumer Credit Act 1974, along with cheque sent to cover statutory fee, sent by recorded delivery, dated 2nd April 2008.

(B) Copy of County Court Claim form issued by Claimant, dated 7th April 2008.

© Copy of formal request, from Defendent to Shakespeare Putsman requesting under the Civil Procedure Rules for disclosure of documents upon which the claimants are reliant on in court, sent by recorded delivery, dated dated 9th April 2008.

(D) Copy of Holding Defence sent to Birmingham County Court and copy to Shakespeare Putsman dated 2nd May 2008.

(E) Court Document, notice of transfer of proceedings dated 6th May 2008.

(F) Court Document, Acknowledgement by court of receipt of defence entered and Advising Allocation Questionnaire to be completed by 23rd May 2008 dated 6th May 2008 .

(G) Copy of Allocation Questionnaire completed by Defendent (with additional draft directions) as returned to court, dated 22nd May 2008.

(H) Court document, order that unless Claimant files allocation questionnaire and fee by 6th June 2008, claim will be struck out, dated 28th May 2008.

(I) Completed allocation questionnaire of Claimant and draft directions from Shakespeare Putsman dated 4th June 2008 and request to extend a reply to the Defence.

(J) Court Document, order that Claimants time for filing and serving a reply be extended to 27 June 2008 following Shakespeare Putsman N244 application that they only received three pages out of an unknown amount of the Defence and they need more time to view entire defence. Dated 10 June 2008.

(K) Court Document, order of its own motion that unless the Claimant do by 4pm file and serve a detailed reply to defence by 29th July, the claim be struck out. Dated 15th July 2008

( L) Copy of Defendents Objection to Court Order giving extension to Claimant on the basis that Defendant sent a copy of the defence directly to Shakespeare Putsman, and proof of posting and delivery dated 17th July 2008.

( M) Copy of Service by way of reply from Shakespeare Putsman dated 29th July 2008.

(N) Court Document, Allocating to Multi Track, General form giving orders including standard disclosure of documents and other ordersand notice of transfer of proceedings to London Court dated 4th August 2008.

(P) Copy of application notice N244 and additional information sheet by Defendant requesting set aside order against the courts extension to extend the Defendents right to reply and set aside due the Claimants non compliance of requested documents.Dated 8th August 2008.

(Q) Court Document, notice of trial date for the 25th September, dated 26th August 2008.

® Recollection of phone call with Mr Rambhojan of London County Court advising Defendant that Claimant claims non receipt of the notice of transfer of proceedings, and general form of orders from Barnet County Court and further advising that the date of 25th September would be for draft directions. Date of 23rd September 2008

(S) Copy of Defendents Objection Letter to Circuit Judge citing Shakespeare Putsmans (SP) non compliance of general form of order and SP’s claim that they were not aware of General Order for standard discloure of documents and transfer of proceedings as time wasting tactics. Dated 23 September 2008.

(T) Court Document, Notice of allocation to Multi Track, Pre trial checklist and General form of orders dated 25 September 2008

(U) Copy of Shakespeare Putsmans response to Court Order giving explanation of their false claim that they had not received notice of proceedings and General Order, when in fact

they had.

2. Authorities and Case Laws

 

 

(AA) Civil Procedure Rules, Rules & Practice Directions.

(BB) Consumer Credit Act 1974

(CC) Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

(DD) Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004

(EE) Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983

(FF) The Administration of Justice Act 1970

(GG) Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

(HH) Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

(JJ) Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co - [1998] All ER (D) 339

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

I certify that I understand the duty of disclosure and to the best of my knowledge I have carried out that duty. I further certify that the list of documents set out in this List is a complete list of all documents which are or have been in my control and which I am obliged under the order to disclose.

 

I believe the facts stated within this document to be true and the document comprises of two pages.

 

GRAD98