Termination of Employment letter received today... help needed!!!

[nowayjose]

I really need help on a letter my son received this morning.... quite a long and drawn out problem so please bear with me while I explain the situation......

 

Yesterday while at work my 17 year old son and another employee were asked to do overtime at short notice by the Company Director...the other employee told him that he was unable to do the overtime as did my son because he had commitments after work... On hearing this the C D went absolutely ballistic and shouted and bawled at my son for not working the overtime and how this order needed to be completed today and so on... my son said he was still unable to work and that legally he is not allowed to work for more than 40 hours a week because he is under 18...(we checked this out on a previous occasion when he felt pressured into doing overtime) ... the C Ds response to this was 'Bullsh*t who told you that, its a load of sh*t' At this time he was right infront of my sons face pointing a pen and continued swearing at him ...to this my son asked him 'Why are you in my face?' My son replied that he had enough of all this abuse for not doing overtime and the C D said just 'F**k off and come back on Monday in my office at 9.30' at this my son (foolishly) said 'To be honest you can stuff your f**king job' and left the yard as instructed to do so... after leaving the yard he telephoned me to come and pick him up and whilst on the phone to me the C D proceeded to carry on shouting and swearing at my son basically telling him to 'f*ck off the premises' (which at this time my son was)

That was all yesterday and this morning he received the following letter which is my son believes, is a totally one sided view of what happened with no mention of the verbal battering my son had to take within full view of the other employees...

 

EDIT Letter Removed due to containing employee names

 

I have a number of questions...

Is this discriminating against my son because he refused to work overtime..even though he is under 18?

He has never signed a contract which states that it is an obligation to work overtime, as suggested in the letter.

Why wasnt the other employee treated in the same manner?

Because my son 'said' to stick the job when backed into a corner and in the heat of the moment, is this legally binding or does a resignation have to be in writing?

 

 

Any advice would be gratefully received....

 

Thanks

NowayjoseXX

[nowayjose]

 

 

Sorry mods heres the letter again... hope its ok now:o

[cal37]

How long has your son worked there?

Was there any witnesses to him saying to f**k the job?

Up to that point how many hours had he worked?

 

Regarding overtime etc, there has been many cases where a EAT says it is reasonable for a company to expect overtime to be done.However as your son is undere 18 this would not count.

[djgordyp]

Was there any witnesses to him saying to f**k the job?

Likewise was there any witnesses to the verbal abuse from the C D.

[Sidewinder]

Not a very pleasant situation for your son to be in. Can I ask how long he has worked there? Has he got a contract of employment or statement of terms detailing his normal working hours? Would the witnesses be prepared to confirm the harrassment and threatening behavious demonstrated by the Director?

 

You are correct in that being under 18 your son cannot normally be employed for more than 8 hours a day, or 40 hours a week, but there is a clause which states that the hours may be extended to maintain continuity of service or production, where there is no adult available to perform the task. This should however be covered in his contract, under a 'Due to the nature of our business overtime may need to be worked at short notice' clause. There is however a need for reason on the part of the employer and the overtime required should have been for a predetermined period of time. It is not unreasonable for your son to make arrangements for his own time, and he should not have been subjected to abuse from a Director of the company.

 

I think that there are grounds to make quite a fuss about this as it could be deemed that your son was effectively dismissed without notice and responded to extreme duress by telling the boss to shove it.

[shywazz]

All companys have proceedures to follow, instantly dis-missing an employee leaves the company open to a appeal, which your son should put in writing as soon as possible, if he has access to CAB or ACAS ask him to make contact with them, there will guide him through the appeals process, instant dismissal is normally deemed for instances of gross mis-conduct, reading the letter you placed on the thread, it doesn't state there have sacked your son, just accepted his own verbal resigination, which your son could claim wasn't said, if there bring a wittness to state he did say such, then that same wittness must have heard the verbal abuse given to your son at the same time from that CD so either way your son should seek the assistance of CAB or ACAS, to take up his case, if he's really brave enough, just advise him to attend work on monday, as infact the company have nothing in writing to state your son left upon his own acord...But 1st things 1st, the letter stating he didnt resign and that he expects the company to continue making the weekly wages payment, while there keep him from his place of employment... Your son needs to hold his ground, but seek the advice of a professional, like the CAB or ACAS...

[nowayjose]

Thanks to everyone for your replies.....In answer to your questions my son has started work there in March 2007 so almost a year... He works from 7am-4pm Mon-Thurs and 7am-1pm on Fridays....when he started working for them he offered to work unpaid for a week on a trial to see if everything was ok..after this time they decided to take him on and he says that he has never signed a contract of employment...I have asked my son if anyone would be prepared to say that the C D was verbally abusing him but he said he would very much doubt it because they would probably get a hard time from him in the future..I ve asked him not to phone any of the other employees because I dont want to give the C D any idea that we may possibly be making a complaint against him....

I dont know what my next move is now as regards whether he will be entitled to any money from the Social Security (not that it would be much anyway because he is under 18) as from the companies point of view, my son has resigned... would this be different if he was sacked???

Thanks all

NWJx

[nickmcmechan]

i think that with less than one years service your son will be able to do anything i'm afraid

 

do you all really want to expend your energy on such an employer; my advice would be to put matters behind you and let your son concentrate on his next job

 

learning to control your emotions is a ket to success in life, your son had a great learning as to the consequences of not doing so...they won...try and use it as a learning experience for his future success

[nowayjose]

Finding another job will be easier said than done Nickmechman... how on earth is he able to ask for a reference from a previous employer or give a reason for leaving last employment??

And unfortunately his job is quite skilled and where I live quite uncommon (stonemason) and to get a job in this field would be difficult..

What is the relevance of working over a year??

Does anyone else think the same???

[Conniff]

Sorry, have to disagree nick.

 

This is just the type of employer that was abolished when the slave trade was abolished.

He gave them a free weeks work and probably is on minimum wages as well.

I would fight this starting with the grievance process.

 

What was your son being paid Jose?

 

 

Normally an employee has to have 1 year's continuous employment with an employer to bring a claim for Unfair Dismissal.

The exceptions to this are:

a) If the dismissal is connected to the employee's Trade Union activities, carried out at an appropriate time, (this is usually out of work hours or during work with the employer's permission. This does not include strikes or working to rule).

b) The employee is dismissed for belonging to a Trade Union.

c) The employee is dismissed for refusing to join a Trade Union.

d) Dismissal was connected with the employee's pregnancy and maternity rights.

e) Dismissal of shop workers or those who work in the betting industry who object to working on Sundays.

f) Dismissal relating to a worker asserting their rights under employment laws.

g) Dismissal of an employee observing health & safety rules.

h) Dismissal of a worker elected as a representative for collective redundancy or transfer consultation purposes.

i) Dismissal of an employee for making a protected disclosure - "whistle-blowers".

Also if an employee is dismissed just before the 1 year period, for example 1 week before, an Employment Tribunal can add on the minimum notice period that the employee is entitled to [1 week) to give the employee the necessary 1 year.

This is done because Employment Tribunals realise that some employer's try to dismiss employees just before they qualify or threaten to do so to gain an advantage in for example pay talks. This extension will not be given if an employee is dismissed for a serious reason, for example theft.

 

 

 

I think you come under f)

[nowayjose]

Thanks Coniff well up until the 1st of January he was paid the minimum wage for under 18's which was £3.40 but as my son was very capable his supervisor put his name forward to the C D for a pay rise... as it goes previously my son had 2 separate bouts of sickness for which he put in SSP forms..this was obviously a concern to his employer so instead of giving him an hourly pay increase he gave him an 'attendance bonus' which meant that if he went sick again in the future, he would withold £50 out of his wages plus deduct any SSP, overall his rate is (was) around £4.60 an hour..its amazing but 3 weeks ago they took 2 other young boys on a trial basis:rolleyes: Suitable replacements I wonder..

Hope this helps

NWJx

[nowayjose]

Thanks Coniff only read half of your reply before I answered... the only problem is in his employers eyes he has not been dismissed he has resigned.. quite clever I think

[Conniff]

Start the grievance process as suggest by others and make sure he has a friend with him at the meeting so that he has a witness to all that is said and the witness would also be the ideal person to make notes of what is said.

 

If this happened this weekend then I think he should turn up for work on Monday. He can say that he did not give notice as the Statutory terms (yet to be supplied) would have stated he must give notice and how long.

[Conniff]

Terms of employment.

 

This requires that all employers must provide employees with a written statement of their particulars of employment within two months of commencing work.

[1st Progeny]

Have a look at employment law in particular ACAS. Conniff gives excellent advice above. Your sons employer is legally resonsible to manage your sons stress at work, not cause it

[nowayjose]

Thanks for all your help Coniff... its a bit daunting trying to defend your son when you dont know your rights... Ive just looked at the ACAS website and have their helpline number..I think they will be the first port of call on Monday morning... I cant seem to find a local helpline number for CAB though..

Thanks again

NWJx

[nowayjose]

Coniff really not sure about sending him to work on Monday though... wouldnt want round 2 with the boss!! Although before the letter arrived this morning I did say to my son that he should go to work until such time that his employer dismissed him or had a meeting to sort out their problems... after seeing the letter though I think that it will just spark another row.. its obvious by the tone of the letter his employer would not want him there and judging by the last run in I wouldnt want my son put in that position...

[Conniff]

Once a mum always a mum - it don't change either as they get older, he will always be your baby.

 

Perhaps in this instance he should write a polite letter asking for a meeting with the boss and see what materialises.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

i think that with less than one years service your son will be able to do anything i'm afraid

 

 

Complete myth.

 

All employees have rights and from day one.

 

To the OP-the employer has taken the alleged statement by your son, '...you can stick your f****** job, I'm not coming back!' as a resignation by your son.

 

However, what needs to be established is what your son's statement actually literally means, not what the employer has interpreted it to mean.

 

1 Could it be possible that your son actually said '...you can stick the f****** job, I'm not coming back!'

 

In this case maybe your son was just refusing to complete that particular job as he had prior arrangements, as mentioned by you already.

 

The employer has already recognised that your son had 'other commitments' in the termination letter.

 

This then puts the employer in the position of terminating the employment without following procedure, ie no notice period.

 

Also, it will be less hassle with the DWP in claiming benefits.

 

And, a claim at an ET which your son should do to further convince the DWP that he has been wronged.

 

2 It appears your son was employed, at 17, for 42 hours a week. This is unlawful.

 

Does your son have an employment contract or written terms? Does he have payslips detailing his basic hours and/or extra hours worked during the past year?

[nowayjose]

Yep your right there all 6ft 2ins of him...lol...I would have to send someone (or myself) to sit in on the meeting though??

[Conniff]

He is entitled to a friend, not sure if that friend can be a relative, but YAL is on your case now and he is a lot more knowledgable than me.

 

I was an employer in my own business of 6 employees and never had trouble with them, I treated them fairly and they gave a fair days work in return.

The only stipulation I had was that they would not be late in the morning and I would dock 15 mins pay from them if they were. But I wouldn't have them hanging around in the evening if they had finished their work, I would let them off early with pay and they worked twice as hard knowing that they could get off early if they had completed that days work.

 

It works both ways, and I had a lot of loyalty from them.

[nowayjose]

Hi Weird...Good point about which particular job he was referring to:roll: ....He was employed for 38hours because of the early finish on a Friday (1pm) He was asked to go with the kitchen fitters to install granite worktops which incidently is not his 'normal' job he is not skilled in this field he would simply be the person assisting with the lifting of the worktops and then waiting who knows how long until they finish the job, although he has done this on rare occasions, his normal job is making marble fireplaces... the other employee asked to work overtime used to assist the kitchen fitters until he had a falling out with them!!

No weird, he has never signed or brought home a copy of an employment contract or written terms, neither has one been through the post...Yes he has regular weekly payslips, he has only worked overtime for them once or twice and I am not sure if it was showing on his wage slips (sorry he is not here at the moment to ask)

Conniff he is not a member of a union so I will have to think who could go with him to a possible meeting...

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Your advice to the OP is bang on and good advice Conniff.

 

I think the important issue here is what the verbal statement of her son actually meant and would it be reasonable for the employer to regard it as a resignation.

[nowayjose]

Conniff I wish his employer was like you... another reason why my son was reluctant to work over was when another employee was asked to work overtime previously instead of being given a lift home afterwards he was dropped off at a roundabout and had to find his own way home around 3 miles from where he lived... It would have been the same for my son if he had worked on because the fitters live in a different direction..as my son doesnt drive he would have to either walk or catch a bus... how can his employer expect favours when they are treated in this way:mad:

[Conniff]

They both probably said things in the heat of the moment that may be seen in a different light if he can get a meeting.