HFC-No Agreement? - Amended defence help please **WON**

[pt2537]

Hi Paul

 

Sorry to bother you again, but I'd like a little help with the N244 please

 

I got let down with a lift to the court yesterday, but I will definitely get there today to hand in my documents etc.

 

I was going to ask the court people to help me with it but I think it might be better if I get it done beforehand as they might not be as knowledgeable as you!

 

I note what you say above about the Judge and no hearing requested.

 

Here goes:

 

Q6. Parties to be served. What do I put here?

 

Part A

 

intend to apply for an order (a draft of which is attached) that What do I put here?

 

because What do I put here?

 

Part B

I wish to rely on Presumably I tick the attached witness statement box

 

 

Do I need to fill in part C ?

 

How many copies of all the documents should I take to the court?

 

Thanks

Rob

 

Hey Rob,

 

as i said, im a little rusty so bear with me,

 

 

part A

 

I ***** (the defendant)

 

(that....) allows an amendment to the above defence

 

(because....) the defendant was not able to file a sufficient defence due to the claimants failure to supply documents vital to the claim with the claim form.the claimant has now disclosed the required information and i am now in a position to file a full defence with the courts permission

 

 

part B tick evidence in Part C in support of my application

 

part c.

 

"I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my defence

 

(brief explaination of why the amendment is needed, etc...............)

 

Please find attached to this application my new defence and documents referred to within that defence"

 

 

with regards to point 6, i would say all parties but cant be sure as its a while since i did one of these

 

if you need help with what to write for part C shout and i draw up something

[robcag]

Hi Paul

 

part B tick evidence in Part C in support of my application

 

part c.

 

"I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my defence

 

(brief explaination of why the amendment is needed, etc...............)

 

Please find attached to this application my new defence and documents referred to within that defence"

 

 

with regards to point 6, i would say all parties but cant be sure as its a while since i did one of these

I'll ask the court people that question then Paul, and I'll do an extra copy of all the documents and take them with me just in case the court people say they are necessary.

 

if you need help with what to write for part C shout and i draw up something

Do you think it would be sufficient to make a reference to the covering letter to the Case Manager which is attached to the amended defence, or maybe copy part of it?

 

Thanks

Rob

[pt2537]

i would put a brief detail in the box rob, you could say "see covering letter attached for full details"

 

oh i forgot to refer to the covering letter in the tail end of part C

 

"Please find attached to this application my new defence and documents referred to within that defence" you need to add covering letter too this

[robcag]

Thanks for that Paul, I'll get stuck into it now.

 

Will let you know when I have delivered it all to the court!

 

Cheers

Rob

[pt2537]

hi rob,

 

dont forget the EX 160 and your supporting evidence for the fees to be paid

[robcag]

hi rob,

 

dont forget the EX 160 and your supporting evidence for the fees to be paid

 

Cheers

Rob

[robcag]

Hi Paul

 

First the good news; You'll be pleased to hear that the application has been submitted to the court along with all the documentation....phew!

 

The bad news is that even though I took along what I thought was proof of my JSA entitlement, it wasn't good enough for the court. Apparently what I took doesn't prove I'm in receipt of income-based JSA, so I had to pay the fee which I can claim back. First of all I was told it would be £75, but then the girl who was dealing with me consulted with a colleague and came back and told me it was £40. Luckily I had taken enough money with me just in case, although I could have done without the expense!

 

The girl then told me she would put it in front of the Judge today as they were sitting, (I presume she meant the application to submit the amended defence would be considered, not the defence itself be considered), and I could phone the court next week on Monday or Wednesday to find out what was happening.

 

So I'll sit tight for a few days and hope that the application is accepted, looking forward and hoping that little lot will stop Restons in their tracks!

 

Thanks again Paul for all your help over the last few days , I couldn't have managed it without you. My cut & paste efforts wouldn't have turned out anything like your defence!

 

I'll let you know what's happening when I find out next week.

 

Cheers

Rob

[pt2537]

cool well the costs aside its a result

 

the application would probably be what is being placed before the judge;)

 

its a wait and see scenario so let us know when you hear

 

 

 

regards

paul

[robcag]

Hi Paul (and everyone else who reads this)

 

Well I phoned the court earlier this afternoon to make enquiries as instructed last Friday when I submitted my amended defence application.

 

The lady I spoke to then gave me some information as to the status of the case, allocated to fast track, etc.etc, and I listened carefully for any mention of amended defence.....nothing! So I asked her again, telling her again that that was the main reason I was calling, to find out whether the application to enter an amended defence had been accepted.

 

She then asked me to hold while she went to speak to her boss. When she returned she said there was no mention on the case notes regarding my amended defence application, but she had been told it would be taken before the Judge again and could I call back in 10 minutes?

 

When I called back after a few minutes she told me the Judge said that he had missed it, but apparently he apologised for doing so and amended the order to include something along the lines of "Defendant allowed to submit amended defence".

 

I just hope now that he has the actual amended defence in front of him and is not thinking that the covering letter or Part C of the N244 is the defence!

 

I'll believe it when I see it!

 

Now the fun should start, I can't wait!

 

Cheers

Rob

 

Happy New Year celebrations to all those taking part tonight!

[pt2537]

well you did set out what was the letter and what was the defence didnt you

 

as long as you did, it should be pretty clear what was what.

 

you should get a letter drop on your mat soon;)

 

let us know what it says mate

[robcag]

well you did set out what was the letter and what was the defence didnt you

 

as long as you did, it should be pretty clear what was what.

yes I certainly did, just as you advised

 

you should get a letter drop on your mat soon;)

 

let us know what it says mate

will do Paul

I was a bit concerned that the Judge could completely miss the application though. Just hope he wasn't having an early drink when they took the papers back to put before him for a second look as it was about 3:15pm!

 

Rob

[pt2537]

these things happen mate to be honest, its quite possible the judge had a large brandy first but thats life, actually the judge can be as pi$$ed as a F@RT for all it matters

 

at the end of the day, they cant enforce the agreement so they can blow it out their ar$e;)

[car2403]

Hi Rob/Paul,

 

Interesting thread, as I'm in an almost similar (though not exactly the same) position with Restons seeking enforcement after "being instructed" by HFC to do so - I wonder if they would "jump off a cliff" if HFC told them to?

 

I'm also pursuing a 2nd agreement I have with them for the same reasons.

 

Both claims involve unlawful Default arguments.

 

Anyway, here's my thread if your interested - I'll be watching this one with interest...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/110146-car2403-hfc-bank-default.html

[robcag]

Hi Rob/Paul,

 

Interesting thread, as I'm in an almost similar (though not exactly the same) position with Restons seeking enforcement after "being instructed" by HFC to do so - I wonder if they would "jump off a cliff" if HFC told them to?

 

I'm also pursuing a 2nd agreement I have with them for the same reasons.

 

Both claims involve unlawful Default arguments.

 

Anyway, here's my thread if your interested - I'll be watching this one with interest...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/110146-car2403-hfc-bank-default.html

Hi car2403

I'm already watching your thread, although I have to admit to being subscribed to quite a large number of other threads.

 

I have earmarked that one though because of the HFC element!

 

Regarding HFC/Restons, I'm not exactly sure which party is the monkey and which the organ grinder

 

Rob

[conar686]

Restons did the exactly same to me representing HFC and got the same judgments. HFC have so far refunded charges but not PPI claimed, they have so far failed to send me the agreements/default notices I have repeatedly asked, wonder why.

 

Good luck Rob I will be very interested in the outcome, good work PT.

[robcag]

Hi Paul (and everybody else who is following this thread)

 

Sorry for the belated update to the thread, I was away for a week or so and have had 1 or 2 computer problems. Whilst I was away I received a reply from the court sometime last week, (posted below).

 

The good news is that permission to amend my defence was granted so I guess our friends Restons will be disappointed!

 

The case has been allocated to the fast track and is allocated 4 hours, which I find a little disappointing as it seems the Judge has probably not properly considered all the points raised in the amended defence. (Probably not surprising as the Judge (same Judge?) who looked at the case on or about 28 December 2007 missed the application to submit the amended defence, and the papers had to be put before him again!)

 

However the next step to be performed is point 2 on the document below, ie "There be standard disclosure by List by 4pm on 28 January 2008".

 

Although I've googled this I'm not sure what is required. I imagine the parties have to list the documents they intend to rely on in court?

 

Any help on how I now proceed at this stage would be gratefully received!

 

 

Cheers

Rob

[pt2537]

Hi Rob,

 

So Fast Track it is then

 

right have a read through this

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex305_e0907.pdf

 

it should make things clearer

 

if you have any questions, as always, ask away

 

 

 

Regards

paul

[robcag]

it should make things clearer

 

if you have any questions, as always, ask away

Cheers Paul

 

Rob

 

EDIT: LINK BELOW ADDED AS LINK GIVEN IN POST ABOVE NO LONGER WORKING;

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex305.pdf

Edited July 4, 2008 by robcag
link in post 92 no longer working, so added new one here

[robcag]

Hi Paul

 

I've been a bit slack (prioritising other stuff) and I'm only just doing my "disclosure by List" submission which has to be in by 4:00pm on 28/01/2008 as shown in post #91 above.

 

The documents I intend to list are the purported 'Agreement' (I will list this as 'Application'), Default notice (invalid), alleged T&Cs and covering letter from Restons for those items, various letters of request (from me) for documentation to HFC and Restons.

 

Presumably I don't need to list any of the Court papers or the additional information sheet I sent in with my AQ?

 

I've read the PDF file you linked to (thanks ), but I have a few questions/confirmations please.

 

1. I believe that I need to 'serve' this on the claimant and the court, is that correct?

 

 

2. Regarding the listing of documents I intend to rely on, should that list include things such as;

a. copies of case law?

 

b. CCA 1974 and associated CCA regulations etc.?

3. Is it necessary to list my amended defence, or will that already have been sent to the claimant by the court?

 

4. Should I list the few statements which Restons have provided which show unlawful charges being added to the account prior to the (invalid) default being issued, even though this line of argument was not used in the amended defence (just in case I need to argue that point at some later stage)?

 

5. Is it necessary to fill in the form N265 (which looks slightly complicated), or can I simply write a letter along the lines of "This is a list of documents I intend to rely on in my defence of the case referred to above" ?

 

I realise you're very busy (always!), but thanks for any further advice you can offer

Rob

[pt2537]

Hey Rob,

 

talk about leaving it til the last minute,

 

oh well not to worry, im used to it by now

 

you need to include everything your going to use in your arguments in court

 

 

i cant off the top of my head remember the exact circumstances of your case so i will need to refresh on it and see what case law you need,

 

i have a template disclosure by list that i used for bank charges claims which you could almost certainly modify

 

if you want to pm me you email address,i will send it accross to you along with the case law and statutes and regulations you will need

 

 

regards

paul

[robcag]

Hi Paul

 

Have PM'd you an email address.

 

Your draft for my amended defence was at post #49 of this thread; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/124572-hfc-no-agreement-amended-3.html#post1300092

 

 

 

you need to include everything your going to use in your arguments in court

Including a list of the case law and regulations CCA1974 etc?

 

 

i cant off the top of my head remember the exact circumstances of your case so i will need to refresh on it and see what case law you need,

 

i have a template disclosure by list that i used for bank charges claims which you could almost certainly modify

 

if you want to pm me you email address,i will send it accross to you along with the case law and statutes and regulations you will need

 

 

 

Thanks for all your help

 

Rob

[robcag]

Thanks for the emailed reply Paul, just received.

 

Just cookin some grub so will check it out after.

 

Rob

[pt2537]

no worries mate,

 

if i have missed anything,let me know and i will fire it over to you.

 

i think you have all of what you need for the case though

 

regards

paul

[robcag]

no worries mate,

 

if i have missed anything,let me know and i will fire it over to you.

 

i think you have all of what you need for the case though

 

regards

paul

 

Hi Paul

At point 12 of my amended defence you quoted "Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd."

I presume I need to list that case also? (You sent me Wilson v FCT Ltd but not Hurstanger )

 

Also are the following the full and correct names for these cases as they should be quoted?

Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co - [1998] All ER (D) 339

Do I need to list my amended defence as an item in the list?

Cheers

Rob

[car2403]

Hi Paul

At point 12 of my amended defence you quoted "Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd."

I presume I need to list that case also? (You sent me Wilson v FCT Ltd but not Hurstanger )

 

 

Also are the following the full and correct names for these cases as they should be quoted?

Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

 

 

House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

 

 

Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co - [1998] All ER (D) 339

Do I need to list my amended defence as an item in the list?

 

Cheers

Rob

 

I'm sure Paul will be along with this anyway, but here's just in case;

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2007/299.rtf

 

It's "Wilson -v- First County Trust"...

 

Also "Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd -v- Swain and Co"