Hi, firstly as a regular viewer of the site but very rare contributor, thanks for all the information put out there (particularly by the site team and the very frequent contributors) to assist us mere mortals, it really does help to know you're not alone. The following situation might be of some general interest in terms of the above areas and I'd welcome any comments, positive or negative. After sadly putting our business into liquidation in 2010, I'm now being chased by the bank (no names yet, don't want to give them any warning) albeit some two and a half years later, for the personal guarantee. No arguments that I signed a guarantee, but their entire attitude since contacting me (including now taking the matter to court despite the fact that there is a formal complaint to them still in progress) has utterly hacked me off, made me review the entire history of the 'relationship', and I'm now determined to fight them all the way, and if possible, even turn the tables somewhat using COBS / BCOBS. My argument is that as they arbitrarily withdrew 80% of the available credit on our business credit card overnight, and additionally demanded repayment of the entire overdraft (albeit by knocking a sum off every month rather than instantly) this seriously damaged the business at a point where it was already vulnerable, and as such was a clear breach of the implied terms of contract in relation to the FCA/FSA COBS / PRIN requirements 2.1.6 and 2.1.8. I should mention that while the business was indeed struggling in the recession, we had held both forms of credit since its inception some three years earlier and had never missed a payment on either. My personal losses from the business folding were around £70k, and I think it entirely reasonable to get at least some of that back from the bank, never mind stuff the personal guarantee....... This all happened in 2009, so I believe it should be covered by COBS. I've initiated a complaint with the FOS (yes, I know they're ineffective but it will give the bank something else to do, and it's another way to use the same argument to pursue them for 'compensation') and I've sent a warning letter to the bank that they should not pursue the legal avenue while the Ombudsman investigates (for personal reasons I could really do without the court related hassle at present). I'm also hoping when they see the substance of the FOS complaint and / or legal defence they'll rapidly back off and make me an offer. However, if they continue with the legal action, I guess the more immediate option is to use the above 'breach of contract' argument to both get the personal guarantee rendered null and void and to counter-sue for (a proportion of) my own losses. I think it is reasonable to link the two things as without the failure of the business the personal guarantee wouldn't have become payable. The really galling thing is that the bank already haven't lost a penny! The loan & interest repayments we made over the years while the business was operating, plus the small business loan guarantee insurance (premiums paid by us, naturally) have already more than covered the original loan and overdraft, so they are, in effect, coming after me for their profits, despite playing a major part in destroying the business......you couldn't make it up..... I would probably have to engage professional legal help for the above, as I'm somewhat unsure about the counter-suing bit in relation to the original action, but I would very much appreciate opinions on a couple of issues; 1. Any views on my chances of success.....!? 2. When I clicked through on the very useful post from Bankfodder re COBS/BCOBS, the 11 principles which came up on the FCA website appeared to be listed under PRINS rather than COBS. Is this just as relevant in terms of a breach of implied terms of contract? (That part of the FCA website isn't entirely clear). 3. If the legal action goes ahead, am I better just to counter-sue for a nominal sum and then (assuming success) use that judgement to get a better result from the Ombudsman, rather than going for the amount I really should and risking substantial costs? 4. Would the court consider it reasonable that I'm defending the claim and counter-suing for personal losses based on the breach of contract, even though the breach occurred in relation to the accounts and agreements (with the exception of the personal guarantee) which were in the name of the (now liquidated) business? (I personally think the link is obvious, but then I don't have a legal mind......). Thanks for your attention, Regards, scotcat65

Could any one help me I have a problem with a Personal Guarantee which is held by a bank and they wish to enforce. This was a guarantee signed to cover the liabilities a Ltd company which I was the sole Director of. I have spent the last few years tussling with this Bank and they have now issued proceedings in the High Court to enforce there Guarantee. I a have no choice but represent my own case in this matter. They also have first charge over a property however the address written on there documentation does not match the property which should be the subject of the guarantee rather it is the address to a yard in front of the property which I own 50% of. They seem to be ignoring this charge in the court case and are simply pushing the personal guarantee. I have spent the last six months trying to get discoverable documents from this bank, they gave them to me a couple of days ago. I now know that the director of the company ( myself ) never signed on behalf of the company acceptance of the banks terms and conditions and there fore the borrowing. The earlier signed documents agreeing the banks terms and conditions on behalf of the company have been changed by the bank with hand written note and a date several years after the signing of the agreement there are no signatures or dates to indicate when the changes were made. Any advice would be most helpful.

Hi, I am a new user and would appreciate some advice on my situation. As director I jointly signed a guarantee with HSBC in 2002 for an overdraft of £13,000 I resigned as a director of a company in 2003, which was done hastily, and left to the accountant to sort out. (foolish I know) The company was in good credit at the time of resignation. In 2011 I received letter from HSBC quoting " the above company has been placed into liquidation on July 2011, attached is a letter in respect of the Guarantee you have given this company. After explaining my situation to HSBC they advised me that they would not release from the guarantee, but would not pursue me if the existing director and guarantor paid the debt. (which he hasn't) The debt was passed to Metropolitan Collection Services, who ignored all correspondence from me. Now i've received a letter from Wescot demanding over £30,000? I rang them to tell them I didn't owe any money to anyone, they couldn't even find me on there system? Is there anything I can do, I have a statutory declaration from the other director stating that I don't have anything to do with this debt or the company. Regards PC

I had a debt of circa £18K to HSBC due to a personal guarantee. In Nov 2007 this was sold to Robinson Way and I made regular payments up until April of this year. In total I have paid 12k. After April I tried to negotiate a full and final settlement, but we could not agree. I submitted a SAR, and I received the information today. They sent me a copy of the personal guarantee and here it states "The aggregate amount payable by you under this guarantee (which includes the amount due under the indemnity in clause 15) shall be limited to the sum of £10,000.00 (Ten thousand pounds sterling) and interest on that sum as mentioned in clause 2b above together with the money agreed to be paid under clause 17. Clause 17 referes to fees expenses, legal and administrative incidental to the enforcement of the guarantee. This appears to indicate that my liability is £10,000 and I have already paid £12,000. This would mean I have no further liability. Can someone confirm my understanding is correct. Thanks. John.

Hi there, I really hope someone can offer some advice, i'm going around in circles with the bank and despite making every effort to resolve my situation, the bank are continuing to be aggressive. My husband and i ran a successful business for 7 years, which held a £10k overdraft which we jointly guaranteed. Due to losing our biggest customer, and the immediate withdrawal of credit limits by our factoring company for a few of our other significant accounts, we sought independent advice from an IP and were advised to place the company in to voluntary liquidation in March 2012. It was frankly a heartbreaking time of worry and stress for us, as anyone who has been through this situation will know, it is incredibly expensive to close a business and we borrowed money from family to settle our factoring account, to pay for the liquidator and as we had personally guaranteed our cars we had to sell them and pay the shortfall on the sale. Natwest held all of our personal and business bank accounts: A business account for the liquidated company A further business account for a separate unrelated limited company in a different industry sector it is important to add the liquid business bank account has no borrowing and is a profitable company and has been for 3 years Our childrens bank accounts Two current accounts for my husband and i A 7 yr term personal loan account in my name for £20k (paid every month on time for the last 3 and a half years) As a result of the liquidation and the subsequent financial strain our personal Natwest accounts were up to their agreed over draft limits, with regular small sums of money being credited to them. The liquidation process progressed and after the final creditors meeting we hadn't heard from Natwest regarding the PG and so we contacted our business manager who informed us that all of our accounts had been moved to head office and he could no longer advise?! We then contacted the business collections department to arrange to repay our PG, we were told that there are no repayment options, we are no longer welcome as customers of the bank due to our liquidated company, that our overdrafts and personal loan would be recalled via letter and they would expect payment in full within seven days, and further that they could and would take available funds from any of our other accounts, including my children's accounts to reduce the overdraft! My husband and i were totally shocked, we had both banked with Natwest since we were 16 and 19 respectively, we felt sure this information was incorrect and made three further calls to the collections department to try and gain some clarity. None was offered and we were offered three further conflicting pieces of information. We waited for 7 days for the demanding letter to arrive, or infact any kind of written communication regarding our accounts. Nothing arrived and as we wanted to resolve the situation ASAP we wrote a letter and sent it by recorded delivery to our ex business manager and to the collections dept, which outlined our willingness to repay in full, but that we didn't have a lump sum of available funds could we make an arrangement as we wanted to protect our credit files and move on from this experience. After two weeks we still hadn't received a response and so we wrote to the above contacts again and also sent a recorded copy to Stephen Hester's Office, stating again our willingness to resolve the situation and how much we wanted to avoid any further action, seeking clarity on the points the collections team had made, and lastly requesting copies of the PG and also my loan agreement as i had been advised that this would be required to make an official complaint. Lo and behold we received a response from the executives complaints team, saying they would send the above documentation and clarify the issues raised within two weeks. A week later i received a copy of a loan application made by husband in 2009 (which he never accepted) addressed to me with a covering letter saying please find your loan agreement attached.... does this contravene data protection? Obviously i contacted them to explain, and was assured it would be sent out asap. In the meantime we had a letter from the CEO's office outlining that due to our company liquidation, the bank take a "one" view and assume we are suffering financial hardship as a result and therefore recall ALL personal borrowing, furthermore they won't be able to discuss any recovery action until they have issued a formal demand, which will result in a default on our credit files, at which time we can attempt to make a payment arrangement! A few days later i received another letter saying they can't find my personal loan agreement. This was 2 weeks ago, and i still haven't had a formal demand. To be honest i am worried sick, i really want to avoid a default, but i have no savings due to the failure of my main business, and have no idea how to proceed? Any advice to my incredibly long and waffly post would be very much appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

Hi All, As a newbie I would just like to thank all the posters who have helped provide re-assurance and advice since my Ltd Company went into administration in 2009 and all the resulting issues I have had to deal with since then! My latest problem is that when the company was trading I (stupidly) agreed to a charge on our family home to support a business loan. I had also signed a personal guarantee for the business overdraft. In the ensuing 3 years I have had to deal with personal bankruptcy, however we have managed to hang on to the family home, aware though that NatWest still had a secured charge on it. A family member has fortunately loaned us the funds to clear the secured charge and I have a number of letters from NatWest confirming the full and final and final settlement amount which has now been paid to NatWest. Last week I received a letter saying that an error had been made at their end and that the personal guarantee also needed to be cleared before they would release the charge! I had no knowledge of this and I have asked them to send me signed copies of the PG. I accept that negotiation will need take place to reach a settlement on the PG, however I originally offered NatWest the chance to settle both at the same time however they refused and said they wanted to deal with them separately. My main concern however is that surely NatWest have a contractual obligation to release the charge, given that they agreed to and further more I paid the full sum including accrued interest to them on that basis.It seems unfair to be moving the goalposts at this stage, although my experience of the Corporate Recovery people in Telford should indicate they will try anything! If anyone has any advice I would be very grateful. Thanks, D.

Hi, I am a director of a company that got in trouble with the secured lender who has now placed us into administration, and the administrator within 3 minutes of arrival went straight into selling the assets (real estate). Both myself and my spouse signed a personal guarantee document that states: You agree that none of your liabilities underthis Guarantee shall be reduced or affected by: the death, insolvency,bankruptcy, liquidation, administration, winding-up, incapacity, limitation ordisability of the Borrower and/or any other person Does it mean that even our personal bankrupcies will not remove these liabilities, and we will in effect be lifelong slaves of our creditor? The creditor is not a bank but a small private company. We cannot afford any more legal fees at this stage, and this seems to be a specialist area.