We should be able to obtain opinion regarding expected life from the original plumber as he is no longer active in the trade, so no issue with future relations with the merchant.. I will talk to my neighbor and explain what he needs to do, clearly it will be up to him to proceed with the claim via the suggested route Thank you for your help.

T&Cs are located at https://www.telford-group.com/terms-and-conditions/ - they seem to be rather disorganised, the stainless steel cylinder appears in the t&c and may have been parachuted in to a pre-existing set of terms. Consequently its not easy to differentiate which paragraphs are relevant. to a copper cylinder. I believe the manufacturer is hiding behind the following. 5.4 e (exclusion) states 'the defect arises as a result of fair wear and tear, (including, but not limited to, corrosion or scale damage) wilful damage, negligence, or abnormal storage or abnormal working conditions;' The original plumber was helpful to assist (by phone) with the failure, but as he is retired he is likely to prefer a quiet life The cost of the cylinder itself is in the order of £200, the total cost of replacement was in the order of £600, but the warranty claim is limited to the cost of the cylinder A picture of the label on the cylinder is attached - orange label simply states 10 Year Warranty - - the dark black and gold product label says the the cylinder is guaranteed for 2 years - at best it is unprofessional.

The link to the current product page is https://www.telford-group.com/product/indirect-vented

My neighbor just has the invoice from the plumber for the work done and materials supplied. The cylinder has a prominent large orange label that clearly states '10 Year Warranty'' and there is no further qualification. No other paperwork was provided. So the man on the Clapham Omnibus would expect that they had the benefit of a 10 year warranty as sated on the tin. The '10 Year warranty' is standard, provided with the product, and was clearly aimed to win sales. The manufacturers web site does currently list T&Cs that qualify the warranty, We don't know if these T&Cs are as they were 5 years ago, or if they have been changed I have to say that the manufacturer appears to be very unsophisticated, their correspondence is far from professional, as was their telephone manner. This may be endemic to the industry as one of the competitors web site has a product page with a large clear bright image stating 10 Year Warranty, then within the product description (smaller print) it lists '5 Year manufacturers warranty'. Not sure what trading standards would make of that. Thanks again

The cylinder was returned to the supplying merchant at the end of March 2020 and the reply from the merchant was received on the 24 September 2020. My neighbour has requested that his property (the faulty cylinder) is returned to him. We know the cylinder was manufactured on 19/05/15 so it was not on the shelf for very long The manufacturers web site currently states - hot water storage cylinders are manufactured in the UK from premium quality copper in accordance with BSI566:2002 (Part L) - Carrying extensive warranties*, cylinders are available in capacities of 50-440 litres.................... there is no reference to the * on this page and also on another page - Manufactured in accordance with BSI566:2002 (Part L) - 10 year manufacturing warranty* (*Terms & Conditions apply) Both old and new plumbers will be contacted regarding their opinions Thanks & best regards

Thank you for the advice. I have looked around for opinion on the lifetime of a copper cylinder. As usual with the Internet there are a wide range of opinion and experience. Ignoring those experiencing premature failures the general view is 15 to 20 years, certainly more than 10 years. The potable water in this area is does have some mineral content but it is relatively low. When I removed my own water cylinder after 25 years there was very little sign of scale, the cylinder was still showing no external sign of corrosion, but the copper had become thin and it proved easy to break. So I think 15 years should be a minimum, allowing for the 'fact' that 'current products have been value engineered' when compared with those of 30 years ago. (as has also happened with the reduced wall thickness of copper pipe) My personal view is that the materials of construction were not fit for purpose, either through an inclusion in the copper sheet, or the forming of the copper sheet resulted in it being too thin where the immersion heater boss was attached, or probably a combination of both conditions. Again my thanks for your help, I will discuss with my neighbor and let him determine.his next step.

The cylinder was supplied by the plumber who replaced the boiler. Purchased from a plumbers merchant. The plumber has retired, the plumbers merchant just passes the issue over to the manufacturer. The cylinder has a large label that simply states '10 Year Warranty', does not state that the warranty is subject to conditions. The manufacturers web site has t&c's which state exclusion where 'the defect arises as a result of fair wear and tear, (including, but not limited to, corrosion or scale damage) wilful damage, negligence, or abnormal storage or abnormal working conditions;' these are not dated so we don't know when they were published, and we don't think 5 years is enough to qualify as 'fair wear and tear' from the point of view of failure We have photographs - cylinder was returned to manufacturer but we have asked for ot to be returned Another manufacturer I checked states 10 Year Warranty - but have same terms regarding corrosion - perhaps an industry standard escape clause The neighbor is elderly Thanks

1/ A neighbor had new boiler installed, at the same time the plumber replaces the 30 year old (copper) hot water cylinder as a precaution 2/ Five years later this (new) cylinder develops a leak. There are holes where corrosion has occurred in the copper at the point where the immersion heater boss is joined into the cylinder. The cylinder has a large notice on it stating it is covered by a ten year warranty. 3/ A plumber replaces the hot water cylinder. The faulty cylinder is sent to the original supplying merchant who returns it to the manufacturer as a warranty claim. 4/ Approx 5 months later the manufacturer rejects the claim stating that they do not warrant against corrosion. 5/ Neighbor phones manufacturer who states that they only offer a 10 year warranty as other manufacturers offered it on their cylinders and they had to offer 10 years in order to compete. They didn't want to offer 10 years, they exclude corrosion however caused, and have no intention of considering this claim. This seems unreasonable a) The cylinder was professionally installed using the correct fittings, the use is on domestic hot water. The previous cylinder was 30 years old and still in service. Therefor we expect at least a 20 year life, or certainly much more than 10 years. b) The exclusion of corrosion is again unreasonable, cylinders do fail due to corrosion, but normally in 20 or 30 years, not 5 years. If the copper were of poor quality, included defects, or the copper was thin due to poor forming during manufacture, then premature corrosion could occur. So the manufacturer is effectively excluding defective materials from the warranty. c) We don't know when the clause regarding corrosion was added to the terms and conditions as no t&c's were provided with the cylinder. d) In summary it seems the product was not of merchantable quality. The manufacturer promotes the product with a 10 year warranty and then hides behind unreasonable terms when there is a claim. Should my neighbor proceed with a claim against the manufacturer, does he have any hope of success, how should he proceed