Hmm fingers crossed they disappear. If not I’ll get some Beta blockers to help me handle the ‘scare’

Hey FTMDave, Nope. Nothing so far. There was a latter dated 19th (sent before all the emailing commenced) saying they now wanted the full £80 as the 14 day ‘discounted’ period had ended. But other than that not a peep.

Thanks everyone. Will wait a short while before I send it.

The time of 4hrs and 4 mins is the time between time of entry and time of exit not parking. The PCN also states that ‘by parking within this car park the driver is bound to these terms and conditions’. No car park was parked in! As clearly stated in both emails. they have not provided the timings for actual parking anywhere. Only time of entry and exit.

And todays reply which came minutes after the email was sent! … The vehicle was captured entering and exiting at the times and date stated on the letter and therefore remained on University land – the point at which they entered/exited is where University land begins. Once a Parking Charge Notice is issued we request the registered owner details from the DVLA. If the registered owner is not the driver of the vehicle at the time the PCN was issued they can transfer the liability to the driver as stated and provided on the letter. In your initial appeal you stated: “The driver of the vehicle was transporting a disabled badge holder to their hospital appointment and in the absence of any actual disabled parking facilities by the Jubilee Wing sought parking elsewhere. The driver drove to the 'Orange Zone' car park and after reading the sign in the car park saw that they could not park there without an orange zone permit and so left the car park immediately. The driver then parked the car on double yellow lines on the road outside the car park and before all the signage for the orange zone but still within the ANPR monitored area”. This leads me to believe you spoke to the driver of the vehicle at the time and they did remain on University land and therefore should have paid for their stay. You also stated: “Since the driver was not parked in the orange zone or in the car park they assumed usual double yellow lines parking applied for disabled badge holders and left the car parked there displaying the blue badge for the duration of the appointment in Jubilee Wing. The University of Leeds is privately owned land so this reasoning does not apply. Orange Zone signage specifically states “Vehicles must be parked fully within the confines of a single marked parking bay. There is also a ‘Private Land’ sign at the entrance and refers drivers to check the signage. I would like to point out at this stage that although a mistake MAY have been made, the hospital was not deprived of any income for the car park as the car was parked outside of the car park itself”. Given your statements it has been proven the T&C’s of parking on University land have been breached and therefore this PCN still stands. If you wish to appeal the PCN then please find the relevant information in my previous email. We will not respond to any further correspondence regarding this PCN. Pfft! Looks like I’ll be court bound with the poor registered keeper then.

Oh . Thank you

Agreed lookingforinfo. They’re asserting that the car was parked in their car park. They’ve come to this conclusion because the ANPR isn’t directly outside the car park it’s positioned on the road leading to the car park, and it captured the car going in and out of that area on the road itself. I’m assuming they are defining the whole area as private land and in their ‘orange zone’ but the main roads are public and any orange zone signs are placed beyond the ANPR cameras.

Thanks NickyBoy and Lookingforinfo have double checked online and yes the land is definitely public. ok will redraft. Do you suggest I leave out the sch4 bits too? thank you!

A quick phone call to the council... they tell me that the roads Willow Terrace Road and Vernon Road (Just before the bend leading to another car park), are both adopted by the council and so one would assume double yellow line parking rules do actually apply there. So unless they can show that the driver was parked in the car park surely they can't pursue this? Dear Parking Appeals, I appreciate yur kind offer of reducing the charge, however, there is no valid reason for the charge to the registered keeper in the first place. Firstly because (as I understand it) the car was parked on Vernon Road outside the Chapel. The road is council owned (as confirmed by the council a short time ago). Since the road is council owned and adopted by the council then normal double Yellow Parking Rules apply here. I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that: Under Schedule 4 S9 [2][e] - (e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper— (i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; The PCN does not ask that the keeper should pay the charge as it should under Schedule 4 S9 [2][e] - . As it doesn't the PCN is not compliant so the keeper is not liable. Under Schedule 4 S9[2] [a] (2)The notice must— (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates; There is no mention of the period of parking on the PCN. The timing mentioned on the PCN by way of the images, is the time spent between the arrival and departure of the car which involves driving to the parking spot and later from the parking spot to the exit. This therefore cannot be called a parking period. This reinforces that the keeper is not responsible. In order to rely on Sch 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 the PCN must meet all the criteria in order to recover from the Registered Keeper. Since you have not met this criteria the Keeper is not liable and is under no obligation to name the driver (which they unfortunately cannot due to their advanced Alzheimers and Vascular Dementia). I would again politely request you to cancel the PCN since there is no chance of you winning in Court.Since you now know the keeper is not liable, to issue a court summons would be in breach of their GDPR. How's that?

Thanks LFI. Should I send that to the appeals team at the University or is that shooting myself in the foot by letting them know I’m ‘in the know’?

. You crack me up!

I know. I just can’t bloomin decide. I have enough on my plate right now and could really do without this. But I REALLY don’t want to give in

I take that back, she was no help. So... I'm going to reply to the appeals teams' email: Could you please clarify who owns the land on which the university sits and also the area of 'Willow Terrace" outside of the car park. Please also provide pictures of where the vehicle was 'parked' and details of the duration of parking as this is not detailed on the PCN. (Gives them a hint about where i'm heading with that?) Or do I just scrap that idea and go straight IAS?

Thanks Dx, have emailed the hospital asking the question re land ownership (the lady there has been helpful thus far).

I am definitely up for a fight. You guys all helped me last time and it resulted in a win… Gladstone’s had to cough up £50. Sweet justice. Id go as far as small claims just to see the look on the J’s face when they see an elderly Alzheimer’s patient defending themselves! The car was parked outside of the car park on the roadside on double yellow lines. It’s unclear as to whether it’s university or Hospital grounds as they are all literally on the same land. Also it is a University Hospital. Is it worth me responding to the email above stating (again) that the car was not parked in the car park? The PCN says ‘By parking within this car park the driver is bound to these terms and conditions and liable to pay a charge if they breach these terms and conditions. The reason we issued the PCN is: FAILURE TO PAY FOR THE DURATION OF THE STAY. Also the reply to the appeal says “The driver has driven past those signs, entered the car parks and thereby have accepted the conditions of parking on University land.” I didn’t know that driving past a sign it means one accepts the T&C’s? What if it’s not legible from the car? I could also include LookingForInfo’s points above? Im going to drive up and take a look at the area so I can get pictures to show you. Thanks all.

Hey HB this is from the parking appeals team. From the email address on the back of the PCN.

Today I have a reply. Brace yourselves. The University of Leeds uses an Automatic Number Plate Recognition (“ANPR”) system to monitor and enforce parking conditions on campus. At both entrances to the University of Leeds Orange Zone car parks (at Woodhouse Lane and Willow Terrace) there are multiple signs stating the terms and conditions of parking here. The driver has driven past those signs, entered the car parks and thereby have accepted the conditions of parking on University land. There is further signage throughout the car parks again displaying the conditions of parking. The University’s Orange Zone car parks are for permit holders and pre-booked visitors only between 7am & 5pm Monday to Friday. Outside of these hours the car parks are open to the public, but a parking tariff is payable (including Blue badge holders). We are not associated with the NHS so the information you provided regarding the “NHS Car Parking Guidance 2022” does not apply to the University of Leeds and is therefore irrelevant. I can see the amount for this PCN has been increased to £80, on this occasion as a gesture of goodwill I have reduced the payment to £20. Payment can be made online at https://leedsunipay.iview.co.uk. Please note, if payment is not made in the next 14 days, then the balance of this PCN will increase to £80. If you wish to appeal then you can do so to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). Details of the appeals procedure can be found at www.theIAS.org. The IAS provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. We will engage with the IAS Standard Appeals Service providing you comply with our internal appeals procedure as detailed herein and that thereafter you lodge an appeal to the IAS within 21 days of rejection. If you do appeal and do not hear from us within 28 days then please contact us, do not assume that your appeal has been successful. Please be advised that if you choose to appeal to the IAS and your appeal is unsuccessful, you will lose the right to pay at the reduced amount. Due to legal procedures, it is difficult for the University of Leeds to submit verbal evidence before the court. We therefore regret that we are unable to deal with telephone enquiries with regard to the issue of this PCN. All enquiries must be forwarded in writing. This charge has been lawfully issued and the collection process will be carried out in accordance with The Administration of Justice Act 1970. 1% of me wants to just pay the £20 to be rid of it the other 99% would rather donate that to this forum. Grrr

Update. PALS have forwarded my email on to the appeals team … rolls eyes*

Posting for reference for anyone that may need ideas... sent similar to PALS and appeals. ---- I write regarding the above PCN. The Registered Keeper (xxxx) of the vehicle has advanced Alzheimer's and Vascular Dementia (diagnosed at Dewsbury and District Hospital in November 2020 and currently under the memory clinic and taking Memantine as medication) and is in no position to respond so I am dealing with this on their behalf. The letter itself was received, opened and then left forgotten, I'm sure I don't need to explain why, hence the delay in response as I have only just stumbled across it by chance. xxxx is unable to drive and was not the driver of the vehicle in this instance. I have done my best to piece together what may have happened and this is what I have loosely established. The driver of the vehicle was transporting a disabled badge holder to their hospital appointment and in the absence of any actual disabled parking facilities by the Jubilee Wing sought parking elsewhere. The driver drove to the 'Orange Zone' car park and after reading the sign in the car park saw that they could not park there without an orange zone permit and so left the car park immediately. The driver then parked the car on double yellow lines on the road outside the car park and before all the signage for the orange zone but still within the ANPR monitored area. Since the driver was not parked in the orange zone or in the car park they assumed usual double yellow lines parking rules applied for disabled badge holders and left the car parked there displaying the blue badge for the duration of the appointment in Jubilee Wing. I would like to point out at this stage that although a mistake MAY have been made, the hospital was not deprived of any income for the car park as the car was parked outside of the car park itself. May I also bring your attention to the recent NHS Car Parking Guidance 2022 for NHS Trusts and NHS Foundation Trusts wherein it states in the Mandatory Elements section: 'Free car parking for those with greatest need The current NHS Standard Contract [Service Condition 17.10] requires that NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts: must comply, where applicable, with NHS car parking guidance in particular, must ensure that any car parking facilities at the provider’s premises for service users, visitors and staff are available free of charge to those groups and at those times identified in, and otherwise in accordance with, that guidance The definitions of these groups are as follows. Disabled people A disabled person is a holder of a valid Blue Badge attending hospital as a patient or visitor or is a disabled person employed by the hospital trust. Disabled patients and visitors receive free parking for the duration of their attendance at, or visit to, the hospital.' There is an increasing demand for disabled parking facilities at hospitals and Jubilee Wing is extremely lacking in its parking facilities for disabled users. In fact the area outside is extremely unkind for wheelchair users who have to park a considerable distance away from the entrance because of the lack of parking in the area. Although I understand the need to charge for parking and in fact issuing PCN's for misuse of facilities I do hope you can see that on this occasion the PCN is unwarranted and politely request that it be cancelled. Lets hope it does the trick. Thanks again for your help!

Brilliant Nicky Boy, thank you so much. I’ll get to it.

Honeybee13, they’re not driving at all. They are driven by someone else. Thanks for clarifying Bazooka Boo. Thanks FTMDave. Will try the three pronged approach and will wait until the morning to send the appeal. Thanks again everyone for all your help. You’re amazing. I don’t know why I was stressing.

Thanks FTMDave Yes this is unusual, hence why I was considering an appeal… long shot. I am a family member. I have been trying to figure out what has happened all day today and think I now understand the circumstances. The driver of the vehicle was transporting a disabled badge holder to a hospital appointment but could not find any disabled parking. They then drove into the ‘Orange Zone’ Car Park, realised they didn’t have a permit and instead parked the car just outside of the orange zone area on double yellow lines and displayed the disabled badge. The double yellow lines were inside the ANPR area but before/outside of any signage detailing restrictions and not in the car park. As such they thought the usual double yellow lines parking for disabled badge holders was valid. I hope that made sense

Shall I attempt an appeal to the email address on the back of the PCN? If it is the hospital they might be more ‘open’ to reconsider? I can explain about the Alzheimer’s etc and hope to appeal to their better nature.

On the back of the letter it says to address the appeals to Leeds University?

Hey Nicky Boy, Thanks for your reply. I'll give PALS a call. See if it helps. They haven't been officially stopped from driving but they never renewed their licence as they didn't meet the criteria on the renewal form. Hey Bazooka Boo, Thanks will do that now see what they say. So I'll not bother appealing then and just send the hospital an email and ask them to cancel the PCN. Cheers all.