Have you received their witness statement yet?

Hi J English, Are you referring to the map that they include in the copy of the supposed lease agreement? Is there any way you can post the document up so i can see? T

yes i was expecting the cheque to come from Excel. Although BW Legal letters kept referring to out "account" with them as though they had taken over our supposed "debt" so maybe Excel have already received their expected costs from BW?

Well we received a cheque from BW last Friday, paid from their office account - I wonder if they get paid by Excel on a no win - no fee basis! I was expecting to have to send them a reminder. Discontinuation notice from the court also received. In response to the "Legal Team of the Year" award, i might nominate myself next year. In all seriousness the professional standards are shocking - I can't believe they are allowed to practice and refer to themselves as solicitors! Would a Complaint to the SRA come to anything? Are they interested in companies like this and the way they practice?

Righto Andy - i meant won as in successfully defended the case, as opposed to lost -to a lay person, its a win. You clearly have a lot of knowledge in this area which is massively helpful to people like me who don't, but please be aware that sometimes when experts make little posts like this - they can come across as a little pedantic and possibly put people off asking for your help! I'm sure you're right, but in the hours of research I did I have come across cases where the judges attitude clearly seems to have been influenced by other cases that they were unaware of until raised by defendants.

Hi yes I will happily, just don't have the details to hand but will post them up when get five minutes when home. Wasn't sure whether you can get a written copy of the judgement or whether there is just a transcript of the tape recorded court session?

The judge made comments about considering whether we should take the issue further regarding them bringing the case to court when they know they have failed to win in the past and also giving incomplete/ incorrect info. I thought probably not a good idea to start accusing them of lying or being purposefully dishonest in regards to the submissions they made. Any thoughts on this - where would it be appropriate to take this and what would prospect be of any changes occurring as a result?

Hi, Ive just won a case regarding a PCN in this car park a few days ago - ive posted a bit about the judgement and how the judge came to those decisions on the thread i started - might be of some use for your case https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?484531-Excel-BW-Claimform-PCN-14-12-2016-Cavendish-Retail-Park-Keighley

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?484531-Excel-BW-Claimform-PCN-14-12-2016-Cavendish-Retail-Park-Keighley

Hi All, Thought I would give an update and brief outline of how my case went in Court – hopefully might be of benefit and reassurance to other people who are being taken to court by Excel/ BW. I can see a couple of other cases relating to this car park and would be willing to share relevant photos and the witness statement they sent to me. Court date was 18th July case was heard by DJ Wright. The representative sent by BW Legal was a Miss Kayani. She introduced herself and asked if we wanted to go and have a discussion in a private room, I politely declined, this threw her a bit, she explained it would be more private. I advised her we were happy to discuss anything in the waiting room. She stated that obviously the client intended to proceed with the claim for the full amount and proceeded to list of sums of money including her fee of £160 for the day, apparently “its 50/50 so could go wither way”. I politely smiled and said yes well let’s see what happens (im not sure how she came to that conclusion). She then asked why I was representing my husband – I said because he didn’t feel confident to do it himself. Had we sent a request into the court – no, we have not been instructed that that is necessary. She then explained the process; I will outline the case, you can’t ask me any questions. I stopped her there to say that was not strictly true was it. The Judge introduced herself and then asked who we were, she explained that if I was representing my husband then she would direct questions to me, if we wanted to have a quiet chat before responding that was fine. Judge invited Miss K to explain her client’s case. Their witness statement stated they would not be relying on POFA, instead they would be allowing on Elliott Vs Loake and CPS vs AJH Films. Great! DJ Wright asked if Miss K had brought these cases with her for the Judge to read – she hadn’t as BW had only supplied the WS. DJ Wright also asked if Mr. W had been supplied with these documents if they intended to rely on them in court – they had not. So without having to speak DJ Wright said that she would give an indication: -The purpose of POFA was to address situations where private parking companies were unable to ID the driver - Excel/ BW WS did not follow POFA therefore they sought to rely on caselaw which they have not brought to court - They have relied on the two cases on many occasions but they do not assist me – the facts are different, they do not support the claim registered keepers have liability for other drivers - Mr W cannot be liable for this on basis of being keeper therefore they need to rely on establishing Mr. W as the driver - Burden of proof is on claimant to prove this, no legal obligation on Mr W to ID driver. No inference in law – indeed the introduction of POFA suggests that this would be wrong otherwise POFA would not have been required. The Judge asked what specific evidence Miss K had to prove this…… . tumble weed…….. she asked if the Judge wanted her to go into the signage. - The PCN did not outline the basis for which the PCN was issued and no evidence was provided with it to show who was driving. - The WS does not give any factual evidence – they are merely submissions I had also raised the fact that we had not been given any evidence to show that we had not paid and displayed, the print out of registration numbers was missing data from a machine and the overhead photos of the car park provided by Excel had conveniently missed off one of the machines. Excel and BW have lost several cases based on this point. I remarked that they are aware of this and so in their witness statement to me one of the machines appears to have disappeared. The judge remarked that if it is correct that the court has been provided with information that is untrue and only partial then that is very concerning and the defendant may wish to consider whether or not to take this further. Case not proven and therefore dismissed. She then went on to say she could now consider costs – I was ready with a schedule of costs – literally every penny I had had to spend. We went through it. She then outlined what she could award costs for and then that she could only award certain costs if claimant had acted unreasonably. I argued: - Correct info was not included in particulars of claim as to the alleged breach, we could not reasonably defend something we had no knowledge of. Miss K tried to argue that money claim online only allowed so many characters however DJ Wright stated that they should have used the characters to better use and - Claimant did not provide complete and correct info as requested under CPR 31:14 in the time allowed. Miss K referred to the bundle of c#*p that we eventually received, but I argued that it did not even contain a copy of the original pcn, parking data or photos as I had requested. - BW Legal sent a letter in which they threatened to hand us a CCJ if we did not respond to their letter – argued this was threatening and intended to frighten into paying - Excel and BW have brought this action and yet failed to turn up to answer questions about their evidence The judge said she had to consider what was unreasonable: - POC did not identify legal and factual basis for claim and this was only apparent from the evidence the defence filed. - Strange for a Claimant to choose not to rely on POFA when they may be entitled to instead relying on criminal case law which they must know are not persuasive - Claimant has made the defendant come to court despite knowing they had no reasonable prospect of success highlighted by previous cases brought to the same court. Costs awarded £448.05 payable in 14 days. Miss K argued for 28 days as it was a large amount of money……. Denied.

Hello all, Just received a letter from the County Court to say court date has been adjourned. When I rang to ask if there was any specific reason the woman was initially a bit shirty with me as it is technically my husband's case. I explained that I will be acting as his Lay representative and that I am dealing with it for him. She asked whether I had written to the judge and informed them or requested permission. I said I hadn't as this was not mentioned in any of the info we have received and that I understood that the point of the small claims court was that people did not pay for legal representation and did it themselves. Then she put me on hold to check coming back to me to say that if he was attending it should be ok but had i informed the court. Please can anyone confirm - do i need do inform them in writing that I will be doing the talking and that my husband will not be giving evidence as he will tie himself in knots and undoubtedly say something unhelpful. Thanks T

Ok, I just wondered because on a previous forum thread, the defendant had had a letter also offering to drop the claim for a reduced payment and was given this advice: does the letter say "without prejudice"? Even if it does you can use it against them as they are too late for such communications not to be considered as evidential. take it with you to show that the claimant clearly acknowledges that their claim is for a ficticious amount So I wondered whether I could use it to demonstrate that the amounts they are claiming are not reasonable?

Please could someone help me to clarify; Regarding the letter I received headed without prejudice offering for me to settle for a lesser amount - can I use this at this point as evidence that their claim is for a fictitious amount or does this make it inadmissible? Thanks everyone T

Hi, Sorry Kaffee, ive not been able to reply to your message as ive not made enough posts on the site but if your offer still stands that would be incredibly helpful, given that you have won your case for the same carpark. Presumably many points of your defence will be relevant to mine also. Would be really interested to know what points the judge found in your favour. Thanks T

No they seem to be intended to push us into paying up before we get to court. I think the letter which included the photos etc must be a poor attempt to reply to my CPR request, however this is not stated and does not include what I asked specifically for. It merely states that they are setting out their clients position and provding background, it does not state that it is a witness statement. The documents they have included are meaningless as the photos and sign pictures lack context or any direct link to what they are trying to claim. The without prejudice letter is again an attempt to get us to pay a reduced amount. Shall I write to them again outlining the info/ evidence I require under CPR 31:14 or can I argue that they missed their chance and what they have provided is twaddle?

Hi All, Thought I should post a bit of an update. The case has been allocated to Skipton County Court on 13th July. Claimant has until 14th June to pay the Court fee to progress the case. Lets see if they're willing to waste a further £25! Have had two letter from BW Legal. The first alludes to our 'recent correspondence' alluding to our reasons for disputing the claim. They have kindly set out their client's position for me blah blah blah client's claim is for damages as a direct result of breaching T&Cs. They helpfully outline what the erected signage apparently said - presumably they think this is handy given that the said signage is no longer there! They go on to say that an objective observer would consider that we have therefore accepted the T&Cs. Really! Next they state that the enclosed photos (pitch black photo of car showing number plate illuminated but nothing to show the location of the car, the driver, no pic of dashboard etc) shows us breaching T&Cs as no ticket on display - this is not demonstrated in either photo. They go on to say that as per my previous request they have enclosed evidence of their clients's right to manage the car park and issue PCNs. I assume they are referring to my request under CPR 31:14. They have sent me some half assed lease documents claiming to show this between Douglas Greg Keighley (LTD) and Excel Parking Services Limited and some incomplete pages of lease clauses that could be for anything with handwritten page numbers. They have also included a nice little street map - thanks I've lived in Keighley all my life. Additionally they have included two images apparently showing the signage in the carpark. These are PDF type pictures and not photos of the signage in situ. So they are saying they've responded to my CPR 31:14 request although much later than the deadline and with meaningless information posing as "evidence". They have not included the proof of planning permission for signage and machines, they have not provided dated copies of the original notice to keeper, nor have they provided data from the parking machines to show registration numbers logged on the day of question. Plus they cannot prove that there was no ticket on the dashboard as ANP photos do not show this. Actually their ANP photos are so dark if anything it goes to show that it must have been bloody difficult to see your hand in front of your face never mind the T&Cs on a sign. Our client is willing to resolve matters amicably as long as you cough up asap blah blagh..... The second letter, dated on the same day but arriving two days later..... Hmmmm???? is headed Without Prejudice Save as to Costs. "Having previously responded to your defence(yesterday) (which in our client's view has little or no prospects of success) we note you have not yet contacted us to settle the outstanding amount". The letter goes on to set out an "offer" of a discounted amount of £165. I presume the Without Prejudice is intended to prevent me from showing the court that the amount and damages is totally fabricated as they are willing to take whatever they can get out of us! Interestingly the template letters now have a contact name on them. Having looked up the name in question on Linked in, it seems we have been allocated to a poor paralegal chap who has worked for the company for a month! Wonder if he's enjoying his induction period. Could do with some English lessons! Any advice with any further action prior to the hearing? They still have not provided evidence as requested and they have so far issued flaky threats of CCJs and have tried to offer us a discount to prompt us to pay up sooner. Is it worth writing to the judge on this basis? Kaffee - we have been allocated to Judge Flanagan - not sure if that rings a bell with your cases? If you can help with any details of your judgments etc it would be much appreciated, I'm hoping that your cases in the same car park will act as a precedent. Thanks all T

Hi All, Received the N180 form, just a quick query. Do I select that there will be no witnesses as I will be representing my husband and I don't want to give them the opportunity to question him over liability, who was driving etc. Opting for Skipton court. Hopefully the judge will follow suit with our case. Thanks Ericsbrother, I will definitely write to the court once allocated. Thanks T Thanks in advance!

Hi all, Sorry for late response, when I last logged on here none of your responses showed up and not had an email notification! I submitted the standard defence of no contract so no breach and also mentioned had not had any response form claimant or their legal team to my CPR request for info/evidence relating to the claim. Received the standard "our client intends to continue with the claim" letter today. This is just one big money auto-claim for them isn't it! Bring it on! PS sorry Kaffee, no venue chosen, waiting for court to get in touch, am presuming i'll be able to choose somewhere local, hopefully Skipton or Keighley?

Evening all, I'm about to submit my defence due tomorrow, which will be no breach of contract which I see is the standard reply advised. While I'm ready to fight this if necessary, and can see will more than likely win if they insist on going to court, I'm on maternity leave and could do without the hassle of this ruining it. Is there anything else I can add in the defence that would give it more chance of being struck out? Thanks T

Hi all, Just as an update, after sending out request for evidence CPR 31:14, BW Legal received this on 5th Feb, therefore unless I receive anything through the post tomorrow, they have not replied within the 14 days as requested. I am sending a letter to Excel tomorrow to inform them that I will be applying to recover all costs associated with this so far. My defence is due by 27th of February. Any further suggestions gratefully received. With regards to the defence, if I hear nothing from BW legal, do I go down the route of having the case dismissed for unreasonable behaviour I.e., not supplying evidence making it impossible for me to defend the case etc? Thanks T

Oh good, you've confirmed what I thought. I love that they think they can just bully people into thinking they can hand down CCJs without any input from a judge . Is it worth putting in a complaint with SRA at this point and or telling BW I plan to do so? Or would they just laugh. I notice that this seems to be an automated money making scheme for them and no solicitor actually puts their name to any of these dodgy letters. Presumably so if you do complain they can just blame 'admin'. The claimed amounts differ on the claim form and on the letter from BW, does that bolster my defence that their claim is bogus? T

Hi Sorry having problems trying to upload it. it's from BW Legal received today. Header : NOTICE OF COUNTY COURT CLAIM ISSUED Text: As you are aware, we represent Excel Parking Services Ltd. We have now issued legal proceedings in the form of a County Court Claim on 26th January 2018 under claim no ........ which you will shortly receive directly from Northampton County Court (County Court Bulk Centre) as you have failed to make repayments on your above account. The amount of the County Court Claim is summarised below: Principle Debt: £100.00 Interest: £8.16 Court Fees: £25.00 Solicitor's Costs £110.00 Outstanding Balance to pay now: £243.16 We may enter a County Court Judgement (CCJ) against you on or after 15 February 2018 if you do not contact us or reply to the County Court Claim. If a CCJ is entered against you, it will remain on your credit file for 6 years and you may have difficulty obtaining further credit. Goes on with : What you need to do now, manage your account online payment options etc etc

Hi All, Thanks for your advice so far, ive sent off the 31:14 today recorded delvery to the BW Legal. Funnily enough we received a letter today notifying us of a county court claim - well yes - we received that and if they had logged into their account theyd see we have replied via AOS. Interestingly the letter sets out different amounts to the court claim, seems they cant decide whether to slap the cost onto the initial claim or hike it up as solicitors fees. The most blood boiling part of the letter is where they threaten to enter a CCJ against on or after 15th feb if we fail to contact them or reply to the court claim. Really??? I thought only the court could slap someone with a CCJ so surely this is threatening and harassment with the intention of scaring people into paying. I guess we now need to get a defence together. My other thought and possibly a slightly paranoid one is that on a different forum I have seen an example of where the same legal company had found the comments on the forum and printed them out in order to use them in court. I'm wondering if they've seen my post about CCJs and tried to play on those concerns. Any thoughts? In terms of the defence I need to see what the contravention is supposed to be, I don't know if they are saying we didn't pay and display as the particulars of claim are so vague. I asked for any CCTV or photgraphic evidence in the 31:14 as we will argue that they cannot verify who was driving. In addition, as the parking company has now changed, do I use that to argue I cannot adequately defend the case as the signage and machines etc relevant to the case will have changed or do I get hold of some old pictures?

Thanks, its no longer current but yes you're right! yes I registered with MCOL and submitted the AOS. thank you for this, I will get it sent off tomorrow. T.

Hi, Thanks Dragonfly 1967! I did a quick read and you've confirmed what I thought, if worst case scenario we lose then we will just pay up straight away. I'm hoping that due to the previous case I've read on here from the same car park that they will discontinue once they realise I am serious about defending the claim! T