Hi cerberusalert You are right they cannot issue a CCJ summons outside the UK (and you are right to clarify my post:)) any more than they can issue bankruptcy proceedings, for the same reason, IE the OP is outside the UK. The point of my post was to try and re-assure banannawoman that the SD threat should not be taken too seriously. I hope bannanawoman understands my point of view which is (including your clarification): 1. They are almost certainly unable to take any practical action as BW lives outside the UK. 2. even if she was in the UK the most practical action is not bankruptcy, though they may issue an SD to scare her, but CCJ proceedings, and only if they think they have a good case.

They often say they are preparing a statutory demand but more often than not this is just bluster to cause you worry, which they have succeeded in doing. In reality it is foolish to make someone bankrupt unless you know for sure they have assets and the disposal of those assets will not be spread amongst numerous other creditors. They do not know this so would be unlikely to proceed with an actual bankruptcy though they may issue the SD. If they had a good case against you backed up by proper paperwork/copies of documents etc the more sensible course of action would be to issue a CCJ summons. I suggest (as the holder of 4 SD's, none of which went any further) that you let them issue it if they want. If they choose to follow through they will have to pay out hundreds of pounds and will get nothing, and as you live abroad what court could they bring it to?

Hi Had a quick look on the internet to try and find a number but could not, though a more intense search would almost certainly result in a number being found. However, may I suggest you follow what appears to be standard operating procedure on here and not talk to any debt collector. If you do you will find they are deceitful, even rude, and intimidating. If you feel you have some business to conduct with them it should be done only in writing. This has the following advantages (to you): 1. You have time to think and to write/say only what you want to write/say. 2. There is a record, especially if you do it recorded delivery. 3. They in particular, do not like written material for reasons 1 and 2. 4. In the world of the spoken word they will wrap you up in knots, but in the realm of the written, it is they that will become tied!

"it goes to show that you try and be reasonable with these companies and they crap on you at the first opportunity." Eloquent and entirely expressive of my own views vjohn

In summary, Natwest claim to have no record of you and then subsequently confirm to Experian that the default is valid, despite apparently having no record of you. Either they have no record of you in which case the default cannot be valid or they do have a record of you and can confirm that the account was paid. If it was paid the default can be removed as there is no legal basis for it to be retained. Either way the default can be removed. You should take legal action against the bank but I have no idea what you would go after them for or how you would do it. Similarly with Experian. Write to them in clear terms telling them what has happened and tell them you will consider legal action against them for damaging your credit reputation. I hope some other CAGers can come forward and suggest a way forward. Also, write to the Banking Ombudsman and the FSA enclosing all your correspondence, and copy to the bank. Another example of why we need have no respect for the banks!

Hi I seem to remember somewhere else on this forum a case coming to court (I think it was against John Marston) where it was ruled the van fees could not be levied unless the van was actually used to remove goods. Maybe some other CAGers can assist. Who was the bailiff?

I second Kelcou's comments. This is appalling and you should not let the matter rest. A forceful complaint to the council almost certainly followed up by a complaint to the Ombudsman following the inevitable mealy mouth reply from the council is now warranted. These people are wrong. They have conducted themselves wrongfully but sit in their ivory towers pretending they know everything and exercise power without responsibility. I hope you make them responsible. If it is not too indiscrete may I ask which local authority it is?

Hi all Hope I am not to late with my contribution. The letter by Hallowitch is excellent but has one or two grammatical/syntax errors. I have made an attempt to correct these as follows. I hope Hallowitch will forgive my editing but it is only to correct a few errors as she did a brilliant job in a very short time: council tax reference number xxxxxx Mr xxxxx address date Dear Sir Mr xxxxxx is my partner. After moving in with him it was brought to my attention that he has outstanding council tax arrears MR xxxxxx is unemployed. Upon moving in with him his benefit was stopped as the law says as I am employed I am liable to support him as we are a couple. I am however aware that I am not responsible for council tax debts accrued by him before we moved in together. After discussing this debt with my now partner I decided to make an arrangement with xxxx council to pay this debt at the rate of £50 per month. This payment was agreed during a phone call to yourselves on around xDATEx and payments have been maintained since that time. On the 22nd august a bailiff from rossendales Mr. xxxx, who does not appear on the ministry of justice certificated bailiffs web site, called demanding payment for this debt or he would remove goods. First of all you should note that most goods of any value in our household were brought with me when I moved in with MRxxxx. I understand that the bailiff cant remove my goods for his debt and a statutory declaration can be supplied to confirm what goods belong to me if necessary. i phoned xxx council as I couldn't understand why a bailiff would call for a debt that was being paid. I spoke to Mrs xxxx who informed me that, according to her, I should have been paying £40 per week according to the records on her screen. I did not enter into a weekly payment agreement of £40 and I'm sure the telephone conversation will have been recorded and can be checked to confirm this. MRS xxxx also maintains that I am responsible for my partners council tax that was accrued before we met which I know not to be the the case. I offered to maintain payments at £50 per month which is an amount I can reasonably afford and also allows me to pay my council tax liability for this year without defaulting. This was refused and a payment of £60 per week is expected from me, an amount I have not agreed to. This is not my debt and I will not agree to a payment plan for someone else's debt that will be detrimental to my self as I have my own bills to pay and am now also liable for this years council tax. I am however quite willing to continue paying MRxxxx council tax arrears at £50 per month until he has employment. As Mr xxx has no assets and no income I hope that the agreement of £50 per month that was agreed to can be reinstated as I can see no way forward if it is not reinstated yours with thanks

Hi In my view you should assert that you are not on any account dealing with the bailiffs, only with the council. You have done an income and expenditure sheet and appear to be able to afford £60 per week. (However, I would not be comfortable going over such a sheet with any creditor as they may be tempted to lead you down a path that priorities their debt to the detriment of your other expenses). It is unfortunate that you have conducted this business over the phone as there is no record of what was agreed and they can deny it again as they have done with your previous agreement. If it was me I would write to them telling them you will on no account deal with the bailiff, only themselves and that you will stick to your regular payment of £50 that was previously agreed. I would also challenge their use of the bailiff and ask them for copies of all correspondence they have sent your partner regarding the account, just to see what went on. I would put a the following sentence in: "I am not challenging the amount of the tax and I am not refusing to pay it". I would further point out that as far as you are concerned you have already agreed with the council and it is they that are breaking that agreement. Unless they resume the original agreement you will make a complaint to the Council Ombudsman (they do not like that at all!). Some other points: 1. Your bill is for £2.5K? Does that include the arrears or just one year? It seems very high for one year unless you live in an enormous property. You should consider if you are in the correct council tax band. It is possible you could get it re-banded. If this was successful the council could end up owing you for all the past over payments on the property. 2.It does not matter if the Bailiffs know you are there. Just don't let them in or sign anything. Yes they can come in via open windows upstairs as well. 3. I do not know what the law says about weekends but I don't think they are allowed after dark. Maybe some other CAGers can clarify that one. 4. Whilst it may be embarrassing, consider telling your parents. After all it was not your fault and you are in no worse a position than many other people. that way you do not have to flinch or worry every time the door goes when they are visiting. 5. This link takes you to a CAG thread about checking Certificated Bailliffs http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/210956-line-search-check-if-3.html and it has the following in it: Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355

hi and sorry to hear of your troubles. You say the bailiffs came out of the blue. The normal process is that the council write to you advising they are going to court. They then do so and subsequently you receive a letter from the court requiring payment. Following that if you take no action a firm of bailiffs is then hired to try and get the money from you. Theoretically you should have gone through this process and therefore received several letters at different stages. Could you say whether you have had these letters and if so when? If not and you have agreed a repayment plan with the council did you make a written offer to them and did you get a written agreement to your offer from them? If, as you say the bailiff came out of the blue and you can prove you are making regular payments subject to an agreement you have previously entered into then you should write to the council (recorded delivery) and point this out, copying to the bailiff. Not withstanding the previous paper chain you are under no legal obligation to deal with the bailiff, only to pay your tax as you are doing. You can therefore write to the council telling them you will not deal with the bailiff and remind them of your payment record by stating the dates and amounts of the payments you have made. Ask them to take back the account. In theory (again!) the bailiff will make a maximum of two visits and then return the case back to the council. Also, take a note of the bailiffs details on the letter and check with the ministry of justice if the bailiff is registered to work with the company he is representing. If he is not registered he is not legally allowed to collect the debt. If you encounter him at the door or on your property: 1. Do not let him in. 2. Sign nothing. 3. Obtain his ID and either copy it if you have a scanner, or take a photograph of it using a digital camera or phone. 4. Take a picture of him to ensure the ID is him and not some low life spear carrier along to help out. Easier said than done but the companies have contracts with the council and it is possible they are breaching the terms by not sending properly registered or the correct people to collect. It may make you feel better to stand up to them and do something positive. They may well be aggressive and this gives you something to fight back with. Should you find out they are not legally allowed to collect the debt you can complain to the council, the council ombudsman and others. Good luck and hang around a bit for some other CAGers to reply.

You will almost certainly be able to get another bank account. It will be a basic bank account. I have one with Halifax and it has a Visa electron card. Other institutions do basic accounts. This account does all I need it to do. You can also get various pre-pay cards for making card purchases etc. I like the Post Office one but the FairFX card seems to be highly regarded.

Hi and sorry to read of your problems. We are always being advised to contact our lender when in difficulties and invariably this is the result. They have treated you shabbily and in my view you should have no compunction about "going the CCA route" as you put it. That is all they deserve and they have brought it upon themselves. They have demonstrated that they are only looking after themselves and you should use the full extent of the law and the applicable regulations to do likewise. With regard to them continuing to harrass you, did you send the template letter here: Harassment by telephone - Consumer Wiki If not send it by recorded delivery (usual cag rules= no signature) and if the calls don't stop follow the link here to see what you can do next. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/126110-telephone-harassment-letters-respected.html B******ds indeed!

Emadcole you must be congratulated for an excellent post 64 which brilliantly sums up my own view, though it was never as clear in my mind as it is now, and I am speaking as a layman who has found this site invaluable in the last four years.

The doc opened fine in Openoffice 3.2 on a linux install. If there is a problem try downloading Openoffice for free for windows. Apologies from a linux fanboy for going slightly off topic.

I think mention of an SD is a bit premature here. 1st Credit have indeed in the past been very profligate with SD's and been brought up short by the FSA or whoever. They are now required to report the number of demands they issue and the subsequent Bankruptcy petitions they issue as a result. If there was anything to worry about, and at this stage that is not necessarily the case, then it is more likely to be a CCJ. I wonder who owns the debt. Have you ever received a notice of assignment? Alternatively, in your letter from 1st Credit does it refer to our client Barclays, or are they saying they own it, or are they saying it is owned by someone else? PGH7447 has asked an excellent question, how much is left?

Being polite will not get you anywhere. Being silent by not ever talking to them will!

I have thought about this a bit since the thread started. In practical terms the situation should never arise because: a. If they call us we should put the phone down without speaking and b. We never call them. As our only communications will be by written means our letters should be business-like, to the point and without abuse or swearing as we hold the high ground. We already know their letters will be bold typefaces, garish and dangerous reds and borders and full of twisted psychology, in other words not "nice" but we can simply file them and go on to have a good day.

Have to agree with Dotty50. My letter was a bit of a rant. On reflection it would not be likely to achieve very much. However, if they responded it would provide you with further evidence that they were content to harass you. However, I do feel the other actions I suggested are worthy of consideration. Unless people start to make a stand financial institutions will continue to ride ruff shod with criminal acts, and harassment is a criminal act. It can damage peoples mental health, cause friction in homes between family members and should not be tolerated.

Nnooooo....oooooooooooo

and here is your letter to edit and otherwise do with as you want. I might have overcooked it but their letter really got up my nose!! Dear Sirs I find your response to my lawful request that you stop contacting me by telephone to be a total disgrace. Your firm is not fit to conduct business in this, or any other territory. Not withstanding your paragraph 2 where you state it is not your intention to harass you are no doubt aware that your actions are none the less, harassing. If you are in any doubt you should ask your legal department for clarity and I refer you back to the acts of parliament you mention in paragraph 3 with which I strongly suspect you are unfamiliar. In effect, if I feel harassed by your actions then in law you are harassing me which is a criminal offence. For that reason I have reported your actions and provided a copy of my original request and your reply to the police (crime number XXXXXXXXXX). I do not care what you believe is the best way to collect debts. As, in addition to the criminal matter that has arisen, a legal/civil dispute now exists between us it is best for me to ensure that all communications between us are in writing so that I can produce evidence in court or to other parties. I do not care what is best for your miserable operation, which has no interest at all in following the lawful wishes of its customers. If as you say in paragraph 4 you are unable to communicate with me in writing then you will be unable to make any progress because I will not enter into any further spoken communication with you, which is my right. Thank you for your advice on call recording. I am already very well advised on both the equipment I am using and the legalities that govern call recording, perhaps even more so than you appear to be. You should clearly understand, as I am sure you do, that I need no authority from you or any of your advisers to record calls not withstanding your intimations to the contrary, and should I do so I know exactly what I may do with them and under what circumstances. Rather than offering me legal advice you should be concentrating on your obligation as a corporate citizen to stay within the criminal law by not harassing your customers. Suffice to say in the unlikely event I find myself engaged in any conversation with your firm it will be recorded and you have been advised. With regard to your paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 and after taking advice I am not at the present time convinced that I have any obligations to pay you anything. I am by separate cover making formal requests under the consumer credit act and the data protection act in order to determine what my obligations, if any, might be. If, after you have provided me with the information I lawfully request, and which you must lawfully supply it becomes apparent that I have an obligation then any repayment level will be determined by me as I am solely and uniquely able to calculate what I can afford based on my own personal circumstances. It is not for you to dictate a figure. Clearly this was not sustainable last time and serves your firm at the cost of other, more worthy recipients of my limited funds. You may either accept it or ask a court for a higher figure if you feel so inclined, in which case setting the repayment level will be a task for the judge. With regard to your paragraph 12 I have no confidence in your firm or your complaints procedure which will doubtless be as foolish as your customer care practices are. I am instead relying on external agencies including trading standards, the financial services authority and the police in order to deal with your criminality, and bullying as admitted by you in paragraphs 5 and 8 of your letter. You should consider this letter to be notice that the account is in dispute, that only written communications will be accepted and that no more payments are forthcoming until you meet your legal obligations as described above. Yours sincerely Might be wise to wait for some other CAGers to comment before you fire this off un-edited!

Hi I think their behavior in general and this letter in particular is outrageous. If it was me this is what I would do. 1. Challenge the debt. Ask for a copy of the CCA agreement using the template on this forum. If they don't respond within 12+2 days you are legally allowed to withhold further payment until they do respond. 2. Send them a subject access Request. It will cost you £10 (postal order recommended and send by recorded delivery). Make a particular point in the request that they provide outbound telephone logs including attempts as well as successful calls, and also demand the recordings they make or a statement that they have not recorded the calls. (It would be very surprising indeed if they came up with the recordings but when they don't they will have broken the Data Protection Act and you can proceed from there. 3. In the meantime do your own income and expenditure sheet. Your priority debts are as follows: a. Rent or Mortgage b. Council tax c. Food and Utilities d. Transport, essential clothing. e. Everything else This is for your own use only and you are under no legal obligation to provide it to them and nor should you. The amount you can afford to pay comes out of e. If this amount is less than they want so be it. You wont be able to afford more as you have discovered. Should they come up with an enforceable agreement you can then pay the amount you have worked out for yourself. They can either accept it or take you to court. If they win the judge will then 99% be likely to set the repayment at the level you offered). With regard to the harassment letter take a long look at this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/99376-telephone-harassment-action-plan.html as there is loads of useful stuff. With regard to telephone recording take a look at this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/169591-recording-phone-calls.html Subject to following the advice in the thread above, if I had received this CRAP1 letter I would be furious. I would do the following: 1. Complain to Ofcom 2. Complain to Trading Standards 3. Make a complaint to the police. Make them accept the complaint and get a crime number. They wont want to deal with it but it is a criminal offence and they must. 4. Tell your MP (when you find out who he is after the election). 5. Tell the FSA. 6. Tell your phone provider. If you use BT try the Choose to refuse service. If it is not BT find out if your provider offers a similar service. Do all of these things and see how many of the above agencies start to harass CRAP1. Finally some rules for dealing with Debt collectors: 1. No phone calls not ever. If they call put it down without speaking to them. If they call back leave it off hook for a while. 2. Written communications only. In my view they have done themselves no favors by sending you the letter they have because it is tantamount to saying they will continue to harass you. Harassment is when you think you are being harassed, which you do think, and failure on the part of CRAP1 to deal with that is a CRIMINAL offence. 3. If you must write to them never sign the letter, even if they write back and say they must have a signed letter. There is nothing in law that says you have to sign. The reason for insisting on written comms is that you have a record of what was agreed. It can have the added advantage that they write something foolish, unreasonable or just plane wrong as they have done here. Good Luck.

This is actually very funny. Does it amount to an admission they don't have a copy themselves?

If it is for you do not throw it away, or the envelope. Keep all correspondence and staple the envelope to the letter. You never know when something in the letter or on the envelope might be useful to yourself or someone else. It might be that cerberusalert was able to tell you it was Howard Cohen because he/she kept the data. Do not worry about being in a mess. Most of us on here started out in a mess. It is also worth noting that many of the creditors and so called creditors are in a mess as well. Use this forum to gradually sort yourself out and do not be afraid of these letters. A lot of the time it is just rubbish and once you see past the empty threats it can be quite entertaining. If you decide to open the letter post back here and tell us what it says. You will then get good advice about what to do next.

annie6 annie6 could you post up the T&C's of your student account or perhaps find it on the web and post up a link. It certainly seems an odd clause to put in a student account.

As a matter of interest, at what point is evidence submitted to a court in the public domain? At a guess, and I have no training or information to back this up so it really is a guess, I would say the evidence of both parties may be private until it is aired at the hearing(s) at which point I presume it becomes public and anyone can view it. As the forum is a self help group could it not be said we are simply preparing the evidence and it happens to be conducted on a public forum for any member of the public to contribute.