hope you meant 31.14. Did you write the short defence para as per my thread ? The defence that they did not attach cca or default with their electronic claim. Not w/e, working days - it works out 18 days from sending date, I think. Not from receipt. Just wait to see. You will probably get a letter from the court acknowledging your defence and they will let the claimant know. Then you will prob get a letter from the claimant saying they are looking into your requests (cpr18 & 31.14). Be patient and keep us posted.

Just a thought from a different perspective. Please see my thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/232368-urgent-help-needed-halifax-new-post.html I did nothing, stopped paying and just waited to see what would happen. My agreement was from 02. No S78 requests, no SAR, no pro-active CPR 31.16. Then I got a claim form and CAG helped me fill it in. Follow the thread to see the process. Then I issued a CPR 31.14 and CPR18 off the back of them starting the legal process. I am not sure what happened at their end - whether the agreement was unenforceable or whether it was potentially too much time, effort and money - but they gave up and wrote the card debt off. My growing feeling with all these card debts is that it is best for them to start the legal process off, rather than you being proactive.

I sent a "perplexed" letter to Link today saying they have not provided all the info needed under the CCA request. I'm not sure why they referred to CCA2006, when my request was made under CCA74. Anyone any explanation for this ? My agreement was April 05. As far as I can see the sheet they sent me is my application... I finally sent the SAR to mbna too. Do I just wait to see what happens next ? Or should I write and tell Link that I have sent a SAR to mbna ?

re post 1180 which may be why Egg seemingly tried to turn lots of credit card debts into new "loans" - with a potential fixed term agreement that is then covered by this clause, S98.... Just my 2p worth for the moment ! On a different note: Can anyone offer help on my mbna thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/210845-hp-mum-mbna-new-post.html cheeky me...

hi Firstly Is this SAR ok to send to mbna ? Or have I missed anything out ? Data Protection Act 1998 Subject Access Request Please supply me with all data - not limited to my transaction history and not limited merely to 6 years of historical information - which you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:- 1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. 2. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with MBNA. 3. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notices or enforcement notice that you sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold. 4. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date they were levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charges were calculated, and what the charges cover. 5. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied. 6. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998 7. A list of third party agencies to which you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed. 8. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement. 9. Termination notices PLEASE NOTE: That unless otherwise stated by yourselves, and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be confirmed that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec). You are reminded that you are obliged to supply all the above documents in line with the Information Commissioners Technical Guidance update (Dated Aug 07) I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable Secondly, re photocopy sheet they have sent - I can just about make out the type. I have typed some of it below. But my name is not on it. It could have come from anywhere !! CCA74 t&cs 1a - we will choose your credit limit and will tell you what it is. we may vary it at any time and write to tell you. 1b - we will chosoe your first statement date We will then produce your statements about one month apart. If you ask we may change the statement date. 1c - by the payment due date shown on your statement each month, you mst pay: - 2.25% of the balance shown on the statement (as long as this is at least £5) or - the charges for Payment Protection cover, plus interest charged onthe statement and fees, plus £5 or - the balance on the statement if this is less than £5 which ever is the least. 1d - The min payment you must make will be shown on your monthly statement. We my write to you allowing you to make a reduced monthly payment or we may give you a payment holiday. If we do that, we will continue to charge interest as normal. We will also not extend the period within which you need to pay if you want to avoid interest on any card purchases you made in the previous month 1e - we will charge interest on transactions as follows: - any card purchase (except as mentioned at the end of the paragraph 1e) we will charge interest at 0.5614% each month. This would work out at 6.9%pa - any balance transfers - we will charge interest at 0.5614% each month. This would work out at 6.9% pa - any cheque transactions - we will charge interest at 0.5614% each month. This would work out at 6.9% pa - and cash transactions - we will charge interest at 0.5614% each month. This would work out at 6.9%pa In all cases we will then charge interest as shown in para 1g. We will not charge interest on the card purchases shown on your statement if you pay off the whole balance shown on your statement, and on the statement before, by the payment due date. 1f - we will charge a handling fee for all cash purchases. The handling fee will be 2% of the amount of each transaction and will be at least £2. There will be no maximum handling fee. We will charge an anuual handling fee of £0. 1g - This table shows how your annual percentage rate (APR) depends on the type of transaction, your handling fees and the credit limit. table as photocopy... ETC ETC The signature sheet: This has my name and address and my signature from April 05. I didnt tick PPC. I DID tick that I did NOT want them to contact me via phone and mail. Important - Data Protection Before signing this agreement you must read section 11 in the terms and conditions provided. You agree that we may process, use, record and disclose your personal information as described in section 11. We will use our automated credit scoring system when assessing your application. **** does this mean this is the application form ?? *** To protect against fraud and money laundering we may make searches and pass your info on to fraud prevention agencies and credit reference agencies. Both types of agency will keep your information and share it with other organisations who recover debt, manage or make decisions about credit and insurance for you and members of your household and to prevent money laundering. Information held by credit reference agencies may be linked to other people with whom you have financial associations. We may look at their records when assessing your application To improve the quality of our service we will monitor or record some telephone calls. We may use personal info about you, including details of any transactions, on your account, to contact you about other products ...... blah Please issue an mbna credit card to me, and if applicable,to the person I have named as an additional card holder. **** please issue means surely that this is my application ?? **** I understand that mbna reserves the right to issue a different type of card. I confirm that the information given is true and complete. I have received a copy of, and agree to be bound by, the mbna credit card t&cs, and I understand that I am responsible for paying any balance due on my credit card account. Then I have signed and dated this bit. PLEASE CAN SOMEONE ADVISE ??

I hope this works. It was only a photocopy so it was not very clear to start with. Please help. Not sure what to do next.

hi I was just about to post my letter to Link and lo and behold something from Link in the post: 2 pages. covering page: "Please find enclosed the docs you have requested from Link Financial. If you have any additional queries relating to this documentation please do not hesitate to contact us on ... Where this request was made under Section 77 or 78 of the CCA 2006 this document fulfils our obligations" All they have sent is a tiny photocopy printed front and back. There is a cut line at the top and underneath "signature form - sign and return today" There is one sentence which says "Please issue an mbna card to me". It seems to be an application form not an agreement. I will scan it up into photobucket in a mo. Would love some feedback on the image. But that aside, I did a request under S78 CCA74, not 2006. I asked for a plethora of details, including statement of account, deed of assignment, etc. Do I write back to them and state they have not sent all the necessary docs. The important issue is that mbna sold them the debt before they should. I am tomorrow going to send in my SAR to mbna. Should I advise Link I have done this ?

HI again, This is the bit that worries me though; "However, the CCA74 does not stipulate each party's rights in respect of termination of the credit agreement. In accordance with general contracting principles, this is agreed between the parties and was clearly set out in the Egg t&cs you accepted and agreed to" Having read some other posts, I am wondering if I should clarify this point. I mean, how can I (and everyone else) accept and agree to something that was not written. Egg are saying that it is implied and should be understood by the lay person, but I disagree. Most lay people would not understand this point: that Egg can terminate an agreement without a Default Notice, just because they feel like it (ie: not making any money out the client). I have too many things going on to write more letters than I have to. But there is something niggling me about this. That clearly "general contracting principles" can not be left unwritten in their agreement. Hmmmm. Some thoughts to ponder on this one....

Post # 1103.

Morning Toymaker . So have you also received the letter that Egg sent last week to me ? So far no-one else seems to have received such a letter from Egg. And based on your last couple posts, do you think that I just - Again - write back to them saying that my complaint is far from closed, that again I repeat for them to advise where in the CCA does it say they can terminate my agreement when not in default ?? And until they do, the account is in dispute and they are unable to recommence collection themselves, or via a dca ? I agree that they are fudging the point in their reply to me. They never deliberately answer the question. Just waffle...

what are the changes with McGuffick ? (is that a judge?) Is there a thread on this that I could be reading ? Which sentences do you, or anyone else, recommend I change now. I mean, the draft above is only repeating what I put in earlier letters.....

HI I have sat and drafted the below. Does this sound ok ? Anything I should be adding ? And should I now SAR mbna? Or just sit and wait to see if Link do anything? ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE I am in receipt of your letter, dated xx/10, the contents of which have been noted. However, I am perplexed by the threatening nature of the contents of your letter considering the alleged debt to MBNA is in dispute and you are in default. For your information I have enclosed the following: 1. A copy of my formal request pursuant to S.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sent to Link, dated xx/09, by special delivery 2. A copy of my reminder letter, dated xx/2010, and formal notice that the account had entered default on xx/2009 3. A copy of the letter you sent me, dated xx/2010, advising that you had reverted back to MBNA for the documents I requested pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act ‘74, S.78. 4. A copy of the letter received today. I will reiterate: Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original Credit Agreement. This means that, unless you can produce such an Agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law. You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the alleged said Agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it; failed to send a full statement of the account; and failed to provide any of the documentation requested. The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed Credit Agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation. You entered into a default on xx/2009 You will also be aware of the Office of Fair Trading's guidelines on debt collection. Any legal action you pursue will be considered as both unlawful and vexatious and I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies: - You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. - You may not add further interest or any charges to the account. - You may not pass the account to a third party. - You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency. - You may not issue a default notice related to the account. I asked Link to consider my letter, dated xx/2010, as a Statutory Notice under S.10 of the Data Protection Act 1998. This meant Link had to cease processing any data in relation to this account - with immediate effect. This also meant you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must, within 21 days, have provided me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning to continue to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’. You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Any such attempts to share my data, without my consent, will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office. Should you not respond within 21 days, I expect this to mean you agree to remove all such data? Please note that in my letter to Link, dated xx/2010, I formally asked Link to communicate in writing and ONLY in writing; that telephone calls from Link would NOT be answered: I further advised that “continued telephone calls, after the receipt of a request not to call, may constitute a criminal offence under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.” I would like to point out that Link has attempted 10 calls to me in the last week. Any action taken against me will be vigourously defended/counterclaimed.....

Hi Gezwee, Well, they haven't rejected my offer to resolve,as such. They said they would get the docs from Mbna within 30 days and revert back to me. Instead they have sent me the above angry letter. I have made a formal S.78 request, a reminder,and now, end Feb, they have said they are cancelling any agreement I had with them. My thought is to copy all 4 letters to them: My Original S78 request My reminder S78 request Link letter to me saying they will get docs Link angry letter to me cancelling any agreement we had. I suspect they know the agreement is unenforceable and they bought a debt they were not entitled too. Can anyone advise what is the best action to take ????

I dont think it is necessary to go down that path HH. However, I would be interested in some help in drafting a reply letter to Egg including some of your points above .

Actually at first there was no CTx as the house was empty, then I swapped it into Tenant's names for a couple years. But this became problematic for my life as I was nomadic. Most people/businesses/cards/car rental etc need proof of some form of permanent abode. It was more preferable to have something solid in my name; it made it easier for setting up bank accounts etc and also having my mail on divert to a family residence. The property is also in the cheapest uk CTx area so it was not a huge annual expense, given the benefits to the rest of my life, to keep paying the CTx... Of course, I might regret this decision now... Found one TA. Still looking for the rest.

Hello again, I am perplexed. Firstly I have logged 10 attempted calls from Link in the last week. Exactly 6 weeks ago Link sent me a letter: "You have recently made a request under Sect 77/78 for copies of various docs. As you are aware Link purchased your debt from mbna on xx and as such we do not always hold this documentation. We have requested a copy of the agreement and the most recent t&cs your account was operated under from mbna and look forward to sending you this in the near future, however please be advised that this can take up to 30 days to provide" I have had nothing in the post in the last 6 weeks. Just suddenly a flurry of calls (not answered) in the last week. Then today I got this letter from Link: "Ths letter is final notification that any agreement you had with Link to repay your dent has been cancelled for non-payment. Without further reference to you we will immediately commence recovery of the full sum £xx (a disputed amount with mbna) by one of the following options. You will be held liable for any and all of our costs associated with collection: 1. your data will be passed to our internal asset investigation department 2. your account will be approved for recovery by way of a judgment secured in your local county court 3. this debt will be transferred to an external fee charging Debt Collecting Agent who may call at [you] their typo home We are extremely disappointed that we have not been able to resolve this [amicable] their typo with you. As always out team of Account Offices remain available to take your call on xx should you wish to discuss this matter. I have a migraine. I am very tired and need to sleep now. But what the heck are they playing at ???????? They were supposed to be sending me docs from mbna. Should I be worried about a Claim form coming through the door? Or is this designed to scare me because they know that either mbna docs are lost, unenforceable, unlawfully signed over to Link before the due date etc etc. Ie they do not have a chance in enforcing it but they are scaring me into thinking they do.... How on earth do I reply to this blatant ignorance. And also the fact of the 10 calls. Now a criminal offence. And an incorrect balance. The miss-spelling in their doc is incredible. Please help.

Since I started looking in to this issue I now know that the first tenant in 2003 had the utilities in their name. So the account finished in my name and became the tenant's responsibility. So when they moved out, was it then their responsibility to cancel and the incoming tenants responsibility to start up ? Or would it automatically revert back to me the owner ?

What do you mean ?? Provisions of which clause ? I dont have the agreement in front of me.

They must know I am the owner as they originally fitted the pipes and meter ! But the house was rented out or empty, from finish of refurbishment. Hightail - I get your point. If they are claiming I am responsible then they must provide all details on the account to me. But because I am claiming I am not responsible, they want to withhold information. Which must indicate that they know there were tenants and they do have info. I might be wrong on this. But you are right, it does imply that. I'm so tired though that I can't think straight. In terms of TAs. No I don't think I have them, at least not all. I doubt most people would keep TAs going back 7 years ! Especially if you lead a nomadic life.... I am going to have to trawl through storage records to find them, and that is going to take time - which EDF say I don't have....

Also - do you think I should send token payment ? i am liable for at least 15-18m of bill. Would this prevent them going to magistrates quickly ?

And re "Dear Customer". Does this mean that cos the bill was addressed to customer that the info is not covered by Data Protection ?? So does this mean they have to divulge info on the account ?

Ok. So do you think I should write to EDF and ask for say 3 weeks to find all the agreements, from agents too if possible, and will forward all details to them as soon as....???? Will they ask to see bank statements showing £s in to relate to tenancies ? Should I offer that info ? Or is that too much info that they are not legally entitled to anyway ? Shall I give them info showing my whereabouts during these periods ? Or again, do I not have to do this ? Shall I write saying "Formal Complaint" which, I understand from above comment from P, gives me 56 days anyway ?? Would be very grateful on some advice on letter writing. Am soooo tired today; and so stressed about this. Can't think straight today.

S- I am not sure what you mean by this paragraph below. Please explain. "Thed account is also in the name of the "The Customer" if EDF are going to state they cannot tell you any details due to data protection you have to ask them who they can speak to as legally anyone can open and read post in this name and obtain information. If they don't want to give you details then ask for the account start date, the date of the first bill and if correspondence has been sent to the property during the period of account. It does not have to of been sent on the current account it can of been sent on the historic account."

Thank you both S - do you work for EDF ? EDF sent in the original bill and it was all estimated. Suddenly they are saying that they took 2 readings. They have now given a chart over a 4 year period, where they say they have attempted to read the meter and the reason given is "No access". On 2 occasions 4 years ago they have stated "Refused access". Can they fabricate this information ???? How can I ensure their info is true. (I just had an instance with a gas meter reader who alleged he read the meter when he could not possibly have gained access to read it !) They state that the billing code of practice does not apply; say that the supplier is completely within its rights to bill in full for any energy consumed where it can demonstrate that: - use of supply has been made but no attempt has been made by customer to contact supplier to make payment - the customer is willfully avoiding payment - the customer has not co-operated with attempts to obtain meter readings or resolve asset queries required to facilitate accurate bill production. I am not sure if these are actual accusations against me or just 3 possible reasons !! They also quote that they have no record of any contact from me since a certain date 9 years ago ! They confirm no further contact has been received from me. They have asked me to send the relevant legal docs regarding tenants. What do they mean by this ? Do they mean Tenancy Agreements dating back 6/7 years ? OMG, don't know where to start on this. Do they want current names and contact addresses for these tenants? What happens if the tenants live overseas and I do not have their current address ? Is EDF going to now try to search for these old tenants, hound them and try to reclaim the £s from these old tenants ? Or will they continue to harrass me if they can't find the old tenants ? S - Are you suggesting that in the change of business ownership that EDF could have lost details from tenants ? That tenants sent info to the previous utility supplier address and that info was not forwarded on to EDF ? Should I write a brief letter saying that I need time to find all the documents ? That they should not put me under such pressure. Another issue is, that the amount is sooooo huge. I guess they might find me liable for some of the bill but even so it will be still very high and I am just not in the position to find such £s immediately. What does one do in such a situation ? Do EDF just cut you off ? Or are there rules against them doing this ? And can you agree a payment plan ? Some urgent advice on this situation is MUCH appreciated.

I have re-read their letter. There seems to be two moot issues: 1) This sentence: "the CCA74 does not stipulate each party's rights in respect of termination of the credit agreement". So Egg are confirming that the CCA74 does not cover "termination" rights for either party - thus insinuating they are "off the hook" ??? They are also confirming that I agreed to this set of circumstances, which is outside the jurisdiction of the CCA74. That by signing an agreement I should have understood "as a general contracting principle" that the agreement would not cover termination rights of either party. (Note here that I have never asked for a copy of my agreement so do not know if the original is enforceable or not). So is ignorance of the law allowed here ? It is not allowed in most cases. So, if every clause within Egg's agreement appears to be covered within the CCA74 then would most normal punters, in the eyes of a judge, be expected to also raise a question of termination rights - a clause which is not included in the agreement - at the time of signing ? If it is not in the agreement, and seemingly not covered by the CCA74, then what is the legal standpoint? The general public can't seriously be expected to understand what a "general contracting principle" means !! Especially when it now seems to mean that Egg can terminate an account solely to their benefit - meaning that they can impose new terms and higher interest rates without any new signed agreement from the original signed customer, who would never have agreed to such revised terms at original time of signing....... 2) "The decision to terminate your agreement was following a biz review and cannot be overturned" So Egg are confirming that my agreement has ended and that they will never reinstate my agreement. Boom. My Egg account is done, dead and buried. Hang on - they still want me to pay on the account. Ummm, I am confused.... Having pondered the above 2 points: - my agreement has unequivocally ended (I have not acknowledged this in writing yet - should I ???) - they have issued revised terms that I do not agree and have never agreed to in writing; hence we do not have any agreement anymore. - how can they continue to chase this debt ??? So.... Any good ideas on a response to Egg now ?