BRW - I have my own thread, but I am interested in your points here on default notices. NW sent me a letter saying they formally demand immediate repayment of xx. They say that sum is inclusive of interest and charges up to xx date. And then interest and charges will continue to be payable on the sum. They have asterixed (*) the balance. Then NW explained * = Balance includes the £30 fee charged for this notice which has been applied to the account. I can not find a S76 or S98 Notice anywhere in my files. I can not find mention of the word default either... Can you just elaborate a bit on what NW should do ? I have been scouring the small print and they seem to have covered everything in their details, but with your input above I wonder if they have acted incorrectly ? Be most grateful to have some feedback

9. The Defendant is able to identify the account that the Claimant refers to in the Particulars of Claim. DO you mean UNABLE ????

"unauthorised" refers to the account. If your current account was closed and a new one set up, NW should have got your authority for the new account. How can a bank close a current account and transfer the balance into a new account of a different type, ie a loan account with different rates of interest, terms, etc without getting your approval in writing first ???? If you have had your current account o/d transferred into a new "loan" account and are subsequently being sent quarterly statements showing quarterly accruing interest, then this is unauthorised (illegal ??). NW appears to have done this to a lot of people over the last 20 years. 9/10 people are ignorant about what NW have done. Probably cos they have many debt issues and they find it hard to face up to all the documentation that is sent to them; preferring to file rather than pore over the small print. I knew something fishy had gone on with my current account, but I too just pushed it to one side to deal with later. With re-newed focus / determination on getting all my finances in order I recently tried to get to the bottom of it. Now I realise what NW did (are doing) I think it is important to make the public aware; to publicly (via legal means) get NW to explain their actions.... Does this relate to you ?

hi - one way is to check how they add the interest. Is it quarterly (loan) or daily/monthly (current acc)? I am only just starting to get to grips with the situation myself, so I am definitely not an expert. I guess one can ask NW directly what has happened to the account they terminated without a default letter !

what happened ?

I definitely think that there needs to be some way of getting everyone, who is affected by this "transporting" of current accounts into loan accounts, together. It seems a lot of people are ignorant about the status of their accounts. I certainly was until last week. But somehow there needs to be a loudspeaker telling people to check their accounts and then telling them where to report for further action ! I think that people need to be very pro-active in ascertaining how many people (friends, neighbours, businesses, family) are affected by this creative accounting by NW. And directing them all towards a certain area in this forum. Any ideas - anyone - on how the forum dogs can gather us sheep all in one pen ???

You should check out my thread to see if the same situation applies to you... I got a ccj on a lower amount than what I had thought the balance was. I am still trying to get to the bottom of what NW have been doing to my account, but it appears they might have split the amount I owe. A small amount on the ccj and a large amount gathering huge (unauthorised) interest on the rest -that I can only assume they will try and attack me with through the courts again unless I sort it out soon (as I am trying to now)

hi ftolad, I am in a similar boat to you !! Although, I hadnt found this site before I got a ccj from NW. I just sent a SAR asking for details. I am interested in your commment that NW said the accounts are still open/live, whilst also having been closed to set up a new "loan" account!! My current account was closed down, a new loan account set up (without me knowing) and yet I still get statements for the account they closed down. It is indeed confusing. It is almost like double entry on the books. If that is possible ? Keeping the old account open whilst telling everyone it is closed ; yet benefitting from a new loan account without legally opening it ! I would write a brief letter entitled "account in dispute" to the dcas telling them to bog off. I would not fill in any financial sheets for NW. I do wonder if they needed your signature to copy onto a fake "loan" agreement. But of course they wouldn't do that, would they.... You should check out my thread.... Yours,

Hi, I am sure I am not the best legal help you will get on here. But firstly, I would move this thread (re-name it) in the HSBC section. Secondly, you should write up exactly what the Particulars Of Claim (POC) say, so others can help you properly, and the date of issue, so we know by when you have to reply / defend etc... And was the claim issued by a bulk centre ? Or via the solicitors ? Thirdly, do not panic. You need to let the forum know when the card was taken out. Use photo bucket to scan your original agreement, blanking out your personal details. It might well be that you have an unenforceable agreement anyway. Be quite methodical with your approach to this. I am sure that you can sort this out, without getting a ccj, and without having to pay such ludicrous interest. Where on earth did they get those rates from !!! Look forward to seeing this in the hsbc section and you getting loads of help.

So, is it best to wait the 40 days to see what they provide ? Or to reply to their letter which already states they wont be giving me the Ltd co info, and quote the above points ? Or do I just complain immediately to the commissioner ? (Not sure how one goes about that ??) on the basis that I have requested info under SAR and they have advised that are not "willing" to produce Ltd co docs, but I need them to assess my true indebtedness to NW... I think I have opened a can of worms here ... HI again, I am a busy bee doing some research this evening... I just found the Office of Data Protection Supervisor website http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/odps/complywithsarjune2010.doc and it lists all the details that the recipient of a SAR has to abide by. I found this : Is it PERSONAL DATA? This is information which identifies a LIVING INDIVIDUAL either on its own or in combination with other information in, or likely to come into, your possession. The Act does not apply to deceased persons, or to companies. If however a ‘company’ consists of a sole trader or is a partnership, then they will be deemed to be an ‘individual’ for the purposes of the Act and the right of subject access will apply. Personal data includes opinions regarding the person and intentions of an employer regarding an employee. For more comprehensive guidance on what is ‘personal data’ see our advice note “Is it personal data?” If it is not personal data, the requirements and rights of the Act do not apply. On this basis, I guess they are stuffed I think I now should draft a letter to the person who acknowledged my request and who said NW would NOT be sending me info on the limited company. In addition, at the end there is an Appendix, Action Summary for the recipient of a SAR as below: Timing: Day 1-Day 40 Action: Collate Information Description: Identify any information which is subject to a statutory exemption from disclosure. Decide whether there are any third party details which should not be disclosed. Decide whether there are any other further exemptions to disclosure that can REASONABLY be applied. What to Document: If any exemptions are applied, record the reasoning behind applying the exemption to each piece of information - this should not be just a general statement. Keep a copy in a separate file, ideally in a SAR file. This will be the first point of reference in the case of a complaint being made to the Office of the Data Protection Supervisor and an assessment being undertaken. The copy may also be used to compare any subsequent SAR requests, or may be useful if the information you send out gets misplaced rather than having to undertake the process again..... So - as I thought: they have to give me grounds for NOT providing the Limited Co details. And as a "sole trader" - (within the limited company) is deemed to be an individual, the right of subject access applies. Yippee. Well this is a bit of a twist.... What do others think ? In addition to my above comments, I went through all my docs today. I can see some big discrepancies. Oh dear, I so wish I had found this site before I went to court 2 years ago...

I have a thread going already HP Mum v NW. But I have a situation and do not know how to rectify it. I think I need some legal help... 1) I recently sent in a SAR to get details on 2 accounts - my old limited company current account (which NW closed) and a new "loan" account that NW had set up. I want to get to the bottom of what NW has been doing with my accounts and debt.. I have just received a letter from NW to say that they will not be sending me the bank details on the Ltd company, but within 40 days they will send me all the info on the new account (which they set up without my authorisation). I want ALL the details they hold on both accounts. The Limited Company was just me. There were no other employees, i was the director and sole signatory on the bank account. So why won't they send me the details on this account ? And how can I force them to send me everything ? There is of course, the possibility that they have lost everything. Or that they do not want me to see what they have been up to !! I need ALL the docs to see the process they followed... So - is there a special letter to write that can force them to send the bank details relating to my old Ltd company ? Like a cpr 31.xx....?? Or are they just trying to fob me off ?? That they are legally obliged to send info, personal and Ltd Co...under the SAR ??? 2) There is another issue too: NW got a ccj against me 2 years ago for not paying off the business o/d. I had personally guaranteed the o/d up to a certain level. But the Limited Company was closed down apx 6 years ago. NW got the ccj against me on the new "loan" account. But I never authorised them to set this up, have never seen any documentation about it, and it appears to be having huge interest added to it quarterly, on top of and aside from the ccj monthly payment. I am beginning to think they should never have been able to get a ccj in the first place, as it was on a (loan) account that I had never agreed to... So - can I get the ccj over-turned on the basis that it is against a bank account I never authorised. i.e.: NW set it up unlawfully 3) And one last question - am I liable for my old Ltd Co debts ? Or does it depend on them finding the o/d personal guarantee documentation ? I am really worried that my old business current account which had a cap on it (with my personal guarantee) is now spiralling out of control in its new format as a "loan" account. They have added rates of interest that have nothing to do with my old business account. It is turning into an enormous debt behind the scenes of my ccj which was for just over £5k... I would be most grateful for any helpful comments. Many thanks, xx

hello again, The NW current account as discussed above was for my Limited Company. I have sent a SAR to NW asking for all details on both this limited company business current account and the new "loan" account that they created in my name. Now I have a question: Can NW refuse to supply information in respect of the limited company ? FYI - I was the company - the sole director ; the sole employee. And the company has since been closed down. If NW refuse to supply all the requested details regarding the limited company account - how can I re-word the SAR to get the info ? Or is there an alternative route to go ? Thanks in advance...

I guess the key is whether you have been receiving statements showing interest accruing quarterly ? If so, then they might have transported your account, as described in my thread. This might explain the higher balance. But it seems in this situation they normally change the #s. I'm not up enough on legal speak to advise more. But I am sure if you make a quick paragraph of what happened and where you are now, maybe someone else will come along and help...without having to read the whole thread..

I emailed him tonight. But he has not answered any emails for 2 months ! So I have no idea what he is doing about everything... Of course, all the possession in this flat are his. I just brought a few things. I just don't want mine to go either... I gather these bailiffs are sneaky. That is why I worry about builders coming in and out... I am not "resident" here. I pay CTax on my residence.

I will sort something out towards the site.... I had a lovely long letter from the man @ Woolwich. Telling me what a bad person I was to get into arrears etc etc... then finally at the bottom of a A4 sheet accepting they had made some mistakes and would reimburse all charges.... Yea There has been an interesting extra to this story though. I discovered they made another internal error. For some unknown reason, they took too little Interest one month. I continued to pay the amount they had advised in writing I should pay. Each month the person at the other end of the phone queried the amount being paid, and I in return asked for them to put in writing exactly the status of my account. They never did. Then I checked my statement. The computer had re-adjusted my balance and monthly payments due to their mistake in taking too little Interest one month. This meant that there was a difference of less than 50p each month between the lower amount I should have paid and the higher amount the computer had adjusted to allege I should pay. Due to this error, and my apparent failure to pay the amount the computer wanted me to pay, each month the computer raised a £40 charge and interest charge !! For a year !! And because I obviously wasn't paying the charges, the interest and arrears just kept increasing. Madness ! Anyways, the error got found and all sorted now. Moral of the story - always check your statements !!

hi I just thought I would add an update on this situation. It is still on going !! Letters have been going backwards and forwards for 6 months. At times I have felt like pulling my hair out. For example: I found one 2-year contract (the 1st) and supplied it to the supplier. They then wrote a stroppy letter reminding me that they had received nothing. I wrote back advising them of the details on the delivery. I received another letter with a few other threats, to which I replied. I then received an extremely stroppy letter saying that at no such time have they ever received a copy of this tenancy contract I keep mentioning, yet in the next paragraph they mention the name of the tenant... They maintained that they had records of a tenant, but only for part of the period I was saying the property was rented and they wanted me to be held liable for the alleged questionable period. They then sent another bill, suddenly showing an end reading after a 1 year tenancy and generated a new bill using this "newly found" reading. Of course I sent another reminder letter with proof of delivery etc. Then I got an apology....from someone else (prob the boss of the previous person assigned to deal with me) ... and conflicting info saying they had taken no readings for 4 years!!! I then got a bill through the door addressed to the tenant in the contract who had left 5 years ago !! with an imaginary end reading !! And another revised bill addressed to me, with an imaginary start and end reading, and which also failed to take into account any payments I had made. Absolutely unbelievable. This whole scenario has been very interesting to see how the supplier has kept changing stories and not answering my questions. At first they said they had no readings. Then they said they had some and gave dates. Then those dates changed. They kept sending threats of disconnection. And each time I would write back and point out their discrepancies. Plus, I kept giving them current meter readings so that I could be seen to be a responsible consumer . I got busy with moving and life and trying to search for old docs in boxes in cramped storage was not high on my list of priorities... However, during the move I finally found some crumpled old TAs that I didn't even know I had. They didn't cover all the periods - there are some void periods where the property was empty - but I sent them off and am still waiting to hear back... I haven't bothered to dig out old bank statements to prove receipt of funds etc, but am now wondering if they will ask for this too ?? Or are those details covered by data protection (mine & tenants) ? It will now be interesting to see how the supplier responds.

HI My friend has been overseas for almost 2 years. He has been paying council tax over the internet, but I gather he has missed some payments for the end of the 09-10 period and has missed some for the start of the 10-11 period meaning he has become liable for the whole of this/next year. I look after his mail and email him all bills that need paying etc. He hasn't taken care of this matter The council has gone to the magistrates and got a liability order and sent a letter "notice of charges connected with distress". I have moved out my place temporarily (rented it out for the summer), so for the moment I am staying in his flat (few weeks) with my kids before we go away for the school hols. His flat will then be empty again. Today, someone let the bailiff in through the main entrance door. When I went out the flat door there was an un-stamped letter and inside a letter from Equita threatening to return to take my friend's possessions. So what do I do ? Clearly I won't let them in. But, part of the reason I am staying in his flat is cos upstairs flooded it and thru the insurance I have just organised builders to come and re-decorate. I wanted to be there whilst the builders are in his flat. What I don't want to happen is that the builders let the bailiffs in by mistake !! Of course, I also don't want them to know about my friend's situation either. Can the bailiffs break in? Or get the police to attend with a locksmith ? For the 09-10 period there was less than £200 owing, but I think this has risen slightly with costs. I guess the 10-11 period is apx £1000pa Also, when I moved out my place I have temporarily moved my piano. I am worried that if we go away and he hasn't sorted his situation, that the bailiffs might get in and try to take my stuff. There is no access other than through the front door. I certainly would not leave any windows open.... Can someone please advise best thing to do here, on behalf of my friend. Thanks

I WON THIS ! Letter of complaint sent to Woolwich and they responded and cleared all charges wrongly imposed. Was not for a lot of money, but it was MY money, not theirs. Summary - if Woolwich has added incorrect charges to your account, do complain and do fight to get the £s back. It is your right.

Hi Have they sent your o/d to CMS at Telford ? If so, you might want to check my thread on same bank...

Thanks JC. Fore-warned Won't it be NW that I have to deal with now by sending these letters? Or are Shoos just par for the course ? It seems my story is the same as many, so fingers crossed they don't id me...

Thanks Paul, that is good to know. I doubt I will go the route of solicitors. I hope I can handle it myself, so it is good to know I should ask such a question if it comes to court. Despite all the details Debs has given, I am still struggling to work out NW's tactics with the ccj. If they closed my current account and set up this - unauthorised - loan account which is increasing constantly with - unauthorised - interest amounts, so that the total is probably huge and will only continue to get even larger - then why would they only demand £6k on the Claim? Shoosmiths confirmed in writing they were only authorised on this new (loan) account. So I don't understand - still - why NW didn't go for the full amount on their newly set up (unauthorised) loan account ????? Am I being stupid here. Is it clever tactics ? That NW split the (unauthorised) total on purpose ?? That they put forward a claim on a smaller amount, leaving the much larger amount in the background gaining huge interest, as Debs said, for their balance sheet and borrowing purposes ? That NW tactically hoped the smaller (still unauthorised) amount would easily get a Judgment ( they did) ; that they could then slip in a quick charging order (they failed) ; that they would then let enough time lapse to lull me into a false sense of security ; that then they would get Shoosmiths to re-commence the Claim to try to increase the payments and get a charging order ; that then NW would suddenly present the much larger (unauthorised) amount as also owing, in the hope the Judge would not ask questions and wham bham I suddenly have a huge debt under a charging order, all unauthorised by me, and effectively illegal ??????? Their timing is immaculate. The reason they went for the charging order in the first place is because Slimeball Shoosmiths failed to cash a cheque I sent at Christmas and thus it appeared as if I wasn't sticking to the Judgment terms of £20/month. It was a perfect time to play slimeball games, when most people are busy being happy and distracted. Now, Shoosmiths have re-commenced writing to me, and probably others too, just before school summer holidays, again another time when people might be away and letters go unanswered for long enough to draft a new claim, which again might go unanswered, leading to a quick Judgment in absence... Hmmmmm. Maybe my imagination is getting the better of me. But somehow I doubt it. And thanks to you Paul and Debs, maybe now I can fight this correctly. But maybe more than that. With the change of cabinet last month, I now find myself with a contact in #11. I think that once my issue with NW is en-route, it will be time to highlight to those in power what the slimeball banks/solicitors are really getting up to.... Now on that note, I am off out to enjoy the sunshine !! Thanks, Sparkie To you and anyone else - Firstly could I just reply to their letter asking them to send all the details on the Ltd Co, as that is what I had asked for under the SAR, and that if they refuse to, ask them on what grounds -explaining/pointing out the obvious to them that I was the only person in the company ? Wouldn't it be a good idea to force them to put in writing why they won't divulge the information to me ? Then I will know how to argue to get the info ?? I am also not sure I understand what you are saying ? I want to find out what they have done with my Ltd Company account. I want to track what has happened to it. They are holding me responsible for the Ltd Co debt, so how can they refuse to show me what they have done to the account ? Secondly, NW already took a claim against me - would it be possible to send them a CPR 31.14 ? And a CPR 18 ? Albeit 2 years later. To force them to provide the information. CPR 31.16 is when I am going to issue proceedings, so could I get round the potential set of circumstances that you predict, by asking the courts to re-open the claim ? I need to sort this out. At the moment I have a ccj for over £5k on an account I never approved. And behind the scenes, on the same newly set up "loan" account there is now a balance heading upwards every quarter with rates of interest I never agreed to either. They have set up this account without my knowledge or approval. They took a Limited Company, of which I was the sole director, and turned the company current account into a personal "loan" account, without my authorisation. And now you are telling me that because it was a Limited Company, they do NOT have to divulge to me why they did this or how they did this ? Yet they hold me accountable for this new account, under terms I never agreed to ? How can this be legal ? And how can I force them to give me the details I have asked for ? You mention Sect 2 of the New Fraud Act 2006. I will check this out. It sounds very serious. Would it be sending off a letter like the SAR ? Or more formal through the courts ? Alternatively, the solicitors have suggested their client - NW - may go back to court to get an increase in what I am paying monthly. Would this be an opportunity to get them to divulge the information ? Or would they continue to hide the information from me. What slime balls they are.... Seems they have a trick up every sleeve. Well I refuse to be beaten on this one. Section 2 or 3, of the Fraud Act 06 ? 2 Fraud by false representation (1) A person is in breach of this section if he— (a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and (b) intends, by making the representation— (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss. (2) A representation is false if— (a) it is untrue or misleading, and (b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading. (3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of— (a) the person making the representation, or (b) any other person. (4) A representation may be express or implied. (5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention). 3 Fraud by failing to disclose information A person is in breach of this section if he— (a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and (b) intends, by failing to disclose the information— (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss. I found this in the Data Protection Act. Q. What is “personal data”? A. Personal data is any information about you which can be linked back to you as an identifiable data subject either on its own or by the use of identifiers allowing it to be matched with some other data which may be held about you by some other data controller Couldn't it be argued that my name is linked to the Ltd co ?

what happened ?

Thanks. Judgment was 2 years ago. Thanks for the compliment. When I went to court, perfectly prepared, I found a solicitor from Shoos who had quite clearly only got the file the day before as he did not have a clue. That said, I wish I had known about this site then. Maybe I could have argued against a Judgment in the first place. It is the only ccj I have. I will print and special all soonest. I guess I will then have to wait up to 40 days .... ok - an update for anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation. I have written the above letters Debs suggested: 1. To Shoosmith, re-advising them that the CCJ is my agreement and I will only abide by the CCJ's terms. 2. A SAR to Shoosmith with a postal order for £10, to special 3. A SAR to Joyce in Edinburgh, enclosing a po for £10, to special 4. A copy of SAR sent to Joyce, to Nat West Credit Managment Services in Telford and in the same envelope a brief letter asking for the Diary Event History and all statements for my router account, to special. One thing though - I realise I am not sure who the postal order (for Joyce) should be made out to ? NW or RBS ? Who should it be made out to ????? So what now ? When they reply - what am I looking for ? And what should my next step be ? What a glorious sunny day

Quote: Debbbbsy, does this mean that Shoosmiths / NW have a CCJ against me on an account which I never agreed to and which should not even really exist and thus can't really even have a CCJ ? YES. Hmmmm - so does this mean eventually that I can get this thrown out ? So will this do to Shoos ??: I am in receipt of your letter dated xx/10 and have made note of its contents. With reference to this correspondence, requesting “my proposals for the repayment of the debt outstanding” to your client, I am writing to remind you that the County Court Judgment is now my agreement and I will pay as per the terms and conditions of this agreement. Is this ok to send to Joyce : Dear Madam, Data Protection Act 1998 Subject Access Request Re: Sort Code: Old current xx/ Account Number: Old current xx / Name: xx biz name Re: Sort Code: new NW xx / Account Number: new NW xx / Name: new NW name Please supply me with all data - not limited to my transaction history and not limited merely to 6 years of historical information - which you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:- 1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. 2. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with NW. 3. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notices or enforcement notice that you sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold. 4. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date they were levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charges were calculated, and what the charges cover. 5. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied. 6. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998 7. A list of third party agencies to which you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed. 8. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement. 9. Termination notices PLEASE NOTE: That unless otherwise stated by yourselves, and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be confirmed that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec). You are reminded that you are obliged to supply all the above documents in line with the Information Commissioners Technical Guidance update (Dated Aug 07) I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable. Yours faithfully And to Telford: The Recovery Manager Credit Management Services xx/xx/10 Dear Sirs, Re: Sort Code: xx-xx-xx / Account Number: xxxxxxxx / Name: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Re: Sort Code: xx-xx-xx / Account Number: xxxxxxxx Please find enclosed a copy of the Subject Access Request letter sent to Ms Joyce Tudor in the Retail Regulatory Risk Department in Edinburgh. Referring to the above accounts I would like you to send me the Diary Event History and all statements for my Router Account. Is this ok ??

have a quick look at my thread. If it is in anyway similar perhaps you can ask for a stay whilst you get further info via a SAR ?