What I am writing here is also described in much more detail EDIT with real-world examples of it working. I currently use this example for two separate accounts (overdraft and credit card) and its popularity is growing immensely. Before I provide the actual details of the official offer I used, this is a summary of what I believe it achieves:- It provides you with a way of dealing with debts without entering into default or dispute and it puts you back in control of your finances. It enables YOU to determine what is a fair amount of money that YOU can afford to pay. To achieve this it is important to calculate exactly what your income is and then all of your outgoings (excluding creditors) e.g. Total monthly income = 1500 (after tax) Total outgoings (food, heating, water, council tax, clothes, electricity etc) = 900 Therefore money left each month for creditors = 600. If you owe 3 different creditors e.g. Credit Card, Overdraft, Mortgage then in this example split the 600 by 3 and make a monthly payment to each creditor of 200. Do this until your financial situation changes (for the better or worse). Now that you know what YOU can afford then an Official Offer can be made to each of the creditors using a template such as below: On a single piece of plain white paper, write the following on the first page in blue ink: On page 2 of the piece of paper write the following at a 45 degree angle: Attach (using a stapler) a cheque made payable to [insert name of bank] with the account number written on the reverse. I then just sent my official offers to the bank using the registered company address via standard post. It is in my opinion important to send it to the bank and NOT to an individual working within the bank. Once the cheque has been cashed by the bank then your official offer has been accepted by the bank. In my case I just continue sending a cheque to the bank each month. Some people just go into a branch and fill out a lodgement slip and pay cash (and of course keeping a receipt as evidence). This is not advice and you should only use it if you are comfortable with what you are doing and accept that you are responsible for your actions. As I stated before, this is something that I am doing with two accounts and will continue to unless my situation changes. The good thing is you can change your offer at any time by sending in a new one. Please check out the link I provided above for much more information on this matter. It is not a solution to clearing your debts, it is something you might consider if you are really struggling and feel it is becoming too much for you.

HERE IS DRAFT 31.14 Notice - Any comments are welcome as I intend sending ASAP. Thanks in advance ***************************************************************************************

That is a great read!! Thanks. I will be doing my LBA today and 31.14 request BOTH BY RECORDED DELIVERY!! One question though, prior to receiving the claim via the courts I had received a couple of letters from the solicitors they are using, which I responded to by telling them that I do not have an agreement/contract with them and to cease writing/communicating with me, as it is a private matter between me and MBNA. Now that I have received court papers with the same solicitors listed do you think I should communicate to MBNA via the solicitors wrt the CPR 31.14 request (as for the LBA, this will definitely be going to MBNA)?

I'm willing to take that gamble because everything is an allegation unless proven otherwise

Thanks Citizen B. I read the pdf you provided - thank you very much!! Extremely useful. I am just in the process of drafting my CPR 31.14 now (will post up here before sending). I will also be calling anything alleged at this stage (see my comments on this thread). With regards to non-compliance with SAR - I am drafting a separate LBA (I prefer to call it a Final Notice Before Legal Proceedings) requesting the SAR information, which is vital for any adequate defence to be prepared. It is then a choice as to whether I make a new claim or I counterclaim it within this existing claim. Are you aware of any limits within a counterclaim, i.e. can I use the counterclaim to claim for interest payments I have made if the alleged contract is shown not to exist AND for damages following failure to fulfil obligations of SAR? I have entered the plan into Project Management software to make it easier to track. I recommend this to anyone else going through this (or use a large piece of paper/diary to track). Thanks for continued support TWTT

Hi CitizenB - firstly, thanks for commenting on my own thread With regards to the above - the point I am making is that whatever they (Claimant) is saying in their POC is purely allegation unless proven (i.e. I could say that you owe me 10,000,000 squiggles following a contract we made on planet zula). If you responded to me with "show me the contract" then you are admitting that it exists, however you would like to see it for your own purposes. Whereas if you said "show me the alleged contract referred to in your POC" then you are not admitting any such contract exists. I hope that is clearer. Cheers - TWTT

I have a comment to make in relation to the OP in relation to a CPR 31.14 request that I feel is EXTREMELY important. I too am potentially using this approach for my case (see here) and want to share this with you. In the draft letter above I have highlighted in red certain key words that I think may hinder the sender. If you say "the agreement" or "the default notice" in a signed document intended for use with the court or anywhere else, then you are already admitting their existence. A Judge in a court can only act upon what you or the opponent says or produces in court. He has to make a judgement upon what he sees/hears and this must be made in line with the law. So if you already admit to the existence of the document in your documentation and/or what you say then he/she must assume it exists. I hope you see the vital importance of what I am saying. Today I will be constructing a draft CPR 31.14 notice for my case, which again can be found here. This is in no way a dig at the OP or anyone else here, I want to help and I want to get things right in my case and help others if I can.

Does anyone else find it strange that in the particulars of claim the claimant doesn't refer to £ or any other currency - all the request is for example "8000"

Well I will defend and probably counterclaim if it is not struck out. Do you know if you can actually make an application for it to be struck out and if so is it a standard n244 form? If so, would a draft order be required or not in this case?? Thanks for your help so far

Perhaps I could make a claim against them for non compliance as part of counterclaim?? Is there any guidance on making such claims? Thanks

OK here is some further background/information: Issue Date of Claim = 18 Nov 2011 Service Date = 23 Nov 2011 Date for return of acknowledgement of service = 7 Dec 2011 Date for defence (+ counterclaim) = 21 Dec 2011 Particulars of Claim - Start The Claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendant under a contract dated on or about xx/xx/1999 in the sum of [approx 8000.00] PARTICULARS a/c no:- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX DATE ITEM VALUE xx/11/2011 Default Balance [approx 8000.00] Post Refrl Cr NIL TOTAL:- [approx 8000.00] Particulars of Claim - End I haven't sent of a CPR31.14 for anything. I have reminded them on 3 separate occasions that they have not complied with the SAR and asked them why. I have not complained to anyone about their failure to carry out the SAR request. I was not mis-sold PPI as far as I am aware and I cannot be sure of penalty charges as I am awaiting information from SAR. What of them cashing a cheque for £20.00? What of them not responding to SAR (i.e. provision of data) which I am sure would form any part of any of their contracts they produce under CCA 1974 - clear breach??

Please can you guys help me? I have received a Claim via Northampton CCBC from MBNA. The particulars of claim are very basic and they claim I owe them over 8000 on a credit card account from an alleged contract from 1999 and they claim it is in Default. I HAVE UNTIL 7 DECEMBER 2011 TO RESPOND (although I could send an acknowledgement of for extension) - therefore time is relatively limited. Pertinent information includes the following: I made section 78 request some time back and received photocopy of alleged executed agreement (unsigned by MBNA just containing a stamp that says verified and a date) with front and back page (will attach asap). Several page document alleged to be terms and conditions from time of alleged signing of agreement (will attach asap). Several page document alleged to be current credit agreement (will attach asap) Signed statement (as such I feel section 78 request was/is fulfilled) With regards to 1. above this contains a section that says "Paragraphs 1-12 contain some of conditions from sections 8 and 9 of the terms and conditions". Within these paragraphs there are a number of references to terms contained with sections 8 and 9 (e.g. 8.4, 9.1). Here is the big problem! When I review 2. from above it says in the area where sections 8 and 9 should be "Refer to the credit agreement for Sections 8 and 9". So hopefully you can see the glaringly obvious problem here, or am I barking up the wrong tree. FULL DISCLOSURE OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AT THE TIME OF ALLEGED SIGNING AND FORMATION OF ALLEGED CONTRACT WHERE NEVER PROVIDED. I have made MBNA aware of this fact and instructed them that as a result any alleged agreement/contract is null and void and all payments should be returned to me. No response on this ever (unsurprisingly). Next pertinent point - I made a SAR in December 2010 and they have still not provided ANY information in relation to this account (they sent some for another account as the SAR mentioned two accounts) after almost a year!! Also, I included a cheque for £20 and they cashed it, even though the maximum statutory amount for a SAR is £10. Final pertinent point - I made two without prejudice offers (obviously shouldn't mention details here) but they included offer to settle in full upon receipt of original instrument of indebtedness and a signed invoice for alleged debt. Both were ignored. These are the basics of the situation and I am now considering what to do next. My thoughts are currently: Submit a N244 application for the Statement of Case (Claim) to be struck out or if not accepted for full disclosure of information. Submit a N244 requesting for full disclosure and a request to submit amended defence to be provided upon receipt of docs from them (in meantime submit brief defence) I would love to hear anyone's feedback on here and any advice/suggestion/opinions. Many thanks in advance

Please can you guys help me? I have received a Claim via Northampton CCBC from MBNA. The particulars of claim are very basic and they claim I owe them over 8000 on a credit card account from an alleged contract from 1999 and they claim it is in Default. I HAVE UNTIL 7 DECEMBER 2011 TO RESPOND (although I could send an acknowledgement of for extension) - therefore time is relatively limited. Pertinent information includes the following: I made section 78 request some time back and received photocopy of alleged executed agreement (unsigned by MBNA just containing a stamp that says verified and a date) with front and back page (will attach asap). Several page document alleged to be terms and conditions from time of alleged signing of agreement (will attach asap). Several page document alleged to be current credit agreement (will attach asap) Signed statement (as such I feel section 78 request was/is fulfilled) With regards to 1. above this contains a section that says "Paragraphs 1-12 contain some of conditions from sections 8 and 9 of the terms and conditions". Within these paragraphs there are a number of references to terms contained with sections 8 and 9 (e.g. 8.4, 9.1). Here is the big problem! When I review 2. from above it says in the area where sections 8 and 9 should be "Refer to the credit agreement for Sections 8 and 9". So hopefully you can see the glaringly obvious problem here, or am I barking up the wrong tree. FULL DISCLOSURE OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AT THE TIME OF ALLEGED SIGNING AND FORMATION OF ALLEGED CONTRACT WHERE NEVER PROVIDED. I have made MBNA aware of this fact and instructed them that as a result any alleged agreement/contract is null and void and all payments should be returned to me. No response on this ever (unsurprisingly). Next pertinent point - I made a SAR in December 2010 and they have still not provided ANY information in relation to this account (they sent some for another account as the SAR mentioned two accounts) after almost a year!! Also, I included a cheque for £20 and they cashed it, even though the maximum statutory amount for a SAR is £10. Final pertinent point - I made two without prejudice offers (obviously shouldn't mention details here) but they included offer to settle in full upon receipt of original instrument of indebtedness and a signed invoice for alleged debt. Both were ignored. These are the basics of the situation and I am now considering what to do next. My thoughts are currently: Submit a N244 application for the Statement of Case (Claim) to be struck out or if not accepted for full disclosure of information. Submit a N244 requesting for full disclosure and a request to submit amended defence to be provided upon receipt of docs from them (in meantime submit brief defence) I would love to hear anyone's feedback on here and any advice/suggestion/opinions. Many thanks in advance

I have sent a letter to the bank to confirm that any agreement/contract is null and void due to lack of disclosure of all the applicable terms and conditions at the time of alleged signing. I have also requested all payments + interest that I have made in the last 12 years to be returned. Any comments anyone?

I would start with a Section 78(1) request to determine the information they have in relation to this. I have done this with two MBNA cards, one they have failed to provide a true copy of the executed agreement (now in default and direct debit cancelled) and the other one I am about to raise questions about. As I have said on another thread a Section 78(1) request is NOT to be used as proof that they don't have it.

Have you tried contacting Royal Mail and asking them?

Anyone?

Anyone?

It will be interesting to see what they send with regards to your request. You may not have done any harm because if they respond then it will show what they believe to be the contract (most likely a signed application form). I would just wait now and see what they send. It is worth getting your head around the fact that a section 78 request is merely a request for key documents and like I said it is not proof that the documents exist. One approach that is worth thinking about is that a lack of meeting their obligations under section 78 is enough to enable you to put the account in default (therefore you are not obliged to make further payments) but it does not write off the debt. Some might suggest that you just then wait and let them take you to court in which case THEY are obliged to provide the original executed agreement in Court. If you attempt to take them to court for non-provision of the executed agreement under a section 78 request you could get into sticky ground, because as the Claimant it is your responsibility to prove that they haven't got the agreement. Hope that makes sense. Best advice is not to rush in though and do more research on here and elsewhere. It is important to rebut any claims they make in letters that you do not agree with e.g. they might say in a response, "We have enclosed the executed agreement..." however if you don't agree that it is an executed agreement you need to rebut them, because in commerce, a claim that is not rebutted stands as being true.

I think you should take this one step at a time. I think it is worth you doing a Section 78 request SEPARATELY for both cards. Not sure if you have done these before but they are loads of templates available on here and elsewhere on the web. Be aware though that a section 78 is merely a request for documents from the banks, IT IS NOT PROOF THAT THEY DO NOT HOLD THEM. With that in mind though, it is often a good indicator It sounds very likely that there is no signed agreement for one of the cards, which will become immediately apparent in their response to your Section 78 responses. If you do the requests and then post their responses back on here there will be lots of people willing to help you with the next steps. Slowly slowly catchy monkey...

Following a Section 78 request I received a 2-sided photocopy of an application form, allegedly some original Ts&Cs, latest Ts&Cs and statement. Application Form - Signature Page Although this appears to be signed by me on 24 March 1999 there is no signature from MBNA. There is a stamp on it that is a circle with the number 6, the date 30 March 1999 and "Verified". At the very top it states "Application Form" Beneath that it states "Credit Agreement Regu...by MBNA Bank Ltd." with a sticker stuck right across the wording (not sure when the sticker was applied by MBNA). Also it was my understanding that the correct term was Credit Card Agreement Regulated by Consumer Credit Act 1974. The signature section is called "Principal Cardholder's Application and Declaration" but the wording and box above signature mentions "agreement". This section also makes mention of "Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974..." in extremely small writing. Application Form (as alleged by MBNA) - Separate Page This contains a column titled "Financial and Related Conditions". It contains the two standard boxes (as required by 1983 regs) and then some pre-amble about the terms stating "...below are some of the provisions contained in conditions 8 and 9 of the MBNA Credit Card Terms & Conditions..." 12 paragraphs of text follow with info about the credit limit, interest rate and payment terms. There is no reference number on either of these pages and neither of them refer to the other. I cannot be certain whether they were part of the same document (I would need to see the original). Terms and Conditions supposedly from the time of signing These are printed in a word document style and clearly are not how they would have been sent. Where Conditions 8 and 9 should be it states "Please refer to your Credit Agreement for conditions 8 and 9" but as I pointed out above, the Agreement (Application Form) states "...below are some of the provisions contained in conditions 8 and 9 of the MBNA Credit Card Terms & Conditions..." Up to date Terms & Conditions I haven't studied these in detail but they don't include my name, but do include my most up-to-date address details. No signatures. Most recent statement This has been provided and is signed (initialled) Any feedback on the above would be gratefully received. Cheers TWTT

It is my firm belief that we might be approaching the subject of allegedly unenforceable Credit Card Agreements incorrectly. Please allow me to elaborate. Firstly, I feel it is important to establish the important point that Courts are ONLY required to adjudicate on matters where the parties cannot reach an agreement (commonly where a dispute is formed) and therefore their services are only required if there is a dispute in the first place. I know that is pretty obvious but I feel is important to clarify upfront. Rather than create a dispute (regardless of who is creating it) I suggest the following approach, however this is not legal advice and is just a suggestion for discussion: Carry out a Section 78(1) request (and SAR if you require more info) and review the provided documents If the bank provides documents that you feel make the debt unenforceable, or the bank provides no documents at all then you might consider sending a Conditional Offer to the bank stating that you intend to settle any outstanding debts and will do so if they meet the following conditions: They must send a signed bill/invoice stating it is for full and final settlement for the amount they believe is owed in relation to the account in question; Provide you with the original executed agreement signed by both parties, which you can then destroy yourself (you may consider requesting for them to write across the agreement "settled in full" with a signature/stamp of the company). By doing this you are offering to meet your obligation of ending the agreement and paying the debt whilst requesting the IOU (promissory note) that was created by you. I cannot see any reason why the bank would refuse to carry out this request because what use is the document to them after you have paid in full? In addition, neither party are creating a dispute therefore there is no reason for Courts to become involved. IMO the CC company would be foolish to attempt to make an application to Court if you repeatedly conditionally accept the outstanding debt, because the lack of a dispute MAY lead the Court to not accept the claim. Also, you could suggest in your response to any claim that you feel a Judge's adjudication is not necessary because no dispute has arisen. If of course the CC company provides a copy of the executed agreement after the Section 78(1) or SAR request that you feel is perfectly fine then it is probably best not to offer to settle in full, unless of course you can afford to, which is obviously preferable to paying debt + interest! Just an alternative way of thinking and assuming others agree and do not entirely rip apart my suggestion I am likely to try this soon.

Mods please remove this thread as it's been answered elsewhere. THanks