Hi pdaddy, I'm going through this at the moment with MBNA - bit further along now - waiting for a hearing date. Don't take the calls - they will get nasty & make threats & try to bully you into paying while ignoring anything you ask for - they really are quite rude! I had one particularly obnoxious idiot who kept ringing back when I hung up. I started putting the phone next to the TV so he wouldn't get lonely talking to himself. The calls soon stopped. Make the same request for the 'true certified copy of the agreement' only this time do it under CPR rules assuming they are making threats of further action. None of this will make the slightest difference - they really are a******s. Treat the DCA's the same way & if they threaten to call round send the standard letter revoking permission for them to do so. Keep a log of everything & don't throw envelopes away - especially the one with the default notice when it comes. Once they have ignored the CPR request you have a choice - sit back & wait for them to start legal action or sell the debt on or give up - or instigate your own legal action for disclosure. I didn't do the SAR request until they instructed solicitors then you have all the information - suprise suprise they now cant provide a copy of the agreement due to retrieval problems. I have got to the point where they are going for summary judgement & trying to take the house. I followed Sunflower's route & at this point instructed a solicitor under a CFA agreement. I'm now looking forward to MBNA getting mugged in court. You can do the court bit yourself if you have time & are confident in being able to counter all their arguments & recognise the bulls**t. Just remember the judge is unlikely to help & it is up to you to pick holes in their arguements & defend your own position. I decided that as my house was at stake & the solicitor is free under a CFA agreement (assuming he likes your case) it would be nice for MBNA's solicitors to have a chat with my barrister in court. My wife is a lot happier now & the pressure is off. All the best & chin up. BM

Cheers CB. I'll get the defence finished off & post it up to make sure I have not said anything stupid. Without the 'Letter before Action' I take it Optima have boobed? Is it worth putting in the defence at this stage? BM

Thanks CB That 2nd one probably fits the bit better. Will need to amend as CPR letters are 2 formal requests + last chance before ask court to force disclosure letter + x2 requests via Optima (the last one of which they wrote back & refused to enter into dialogue & referred me to MBNA). Should look good in court. I have had no 7 day letter. I did get a letter asking for proposals to settle arrears & respond within 14 days or MAY commence legal action without further notice. Does this count as a Letter before Action? Do I send the letter (& attached copy of the defence) to Optima AND the defence to the court (with a copy of the Optima letter)? I take it from your comment you do not feel the application form is a valid agreement - or am I putting words into your mouth? Thanks for help so far. BM

Thanks for input Rob & CB. 1. I used CPR 31.16. That was what was on the template I downloaded. Is this wrong? 2. The DN Letter states the payment they require. It refers to repaying the 'amount of any arrears on the account' but does not say the payment required is the arrears amount. It does not ask for the full amount. 3. It gives the balance but not the credit limit. 4. There is no agreement number on the POC. 5. They sent my current T&C. 6. They sent what they calim are original T&C but these are incomplete. Please read post#4. The T&C refer to other T&C which I did not receive & could not have been part of the original agreement - there is not room on the form & why have 1 set of T&C referring to another set of T&C on the same document? It would all be one. 7. I have sent off a SAR request. 8. I am sending a CPR request for proof of 1st class postage. Any thoughts on the application form/agreement? I dont see a link from front to back page, there are many T&C referrals to paragraphs not present, etc. Please see my comments in post#4. Is this valid? I don't see how it can be.

Hi Sunshine, I've been through loads of posts - gone square eyed! But I'm no solicitor & I could do with some assurance that I have got my facts right before I go to court. Time is getting a bit short now & could really use some help with this.

Hi Rob, Thanks for that. I've had a look at the thread & can use a lot of the embarrassed defence wording if I go this route. I could really do with someone commenting on post #4 and my comment on the DN in post #15. Time is ticking by very fast now. Thoughts anyone? BM

Hi Rob, Dated 22/06/09 & given till 10/07/09. 19 days in total (including date sent) 4 of these days were Sat & Sun's. No bank holidays. Didn't keep the envelope & can't remember if 1st or 2nd post or date received. Unless there is anything wrong with the wording I dont think this is going to help me. BUT - the DN refers to paragraph 8 of the agreement & repayment of arrears. In the T&C sent to me paragraph 8 is about the APR. Backs up that this is an app form & not an agreement. Any thoughts?

Hi DG, Yes the 'Right to Cancel' is on the front page. Is this important? The Default Notice gave 19 days. Get well soon - all the best. I would be grateful if someone could comment on the points raised in post #4. BM

Cheers Redfish, will be interested to see what he says. BM.

Hi Redfish, Did it go to court & if so what hapened or is yours still ongoing? I'd rather be on stronger ground than just this one point if possible.

Bump

Bump

Here they are. Application Form.PDF Default Notice.pdf Court Papers.pdf BM

Thanks for advice Bazaar & DG. Finally got the stuff depersonalized & scanned. I have posted everything up now. First - the Application form (alleged CCA) & the T & C they sent me. These have been posted before & are very poor copies. 1) I can't see anything linking the front to the back page. 2) There are T & C which refer to other T&C clauses which are just not there (eg 2.1, 8.11, 9.1, 9.4, 10.5, 10.6, 14.1, 15). 3) The T&C refer to other MBNA Credit Card T&C. The phrase used is: 'Set out in paragraphs 1-12 below are Conditions S and 9 of the MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions of use. The other conditions referred to in those paragraphs and the applicable definitions can be found in those Terms and Conditions' I do not have these T & C and should ALL T&C be contained within an agreement for it to be valid? 4) No space for MBNA representative to sign & no MBNA signature. 5) The application has got my signature on it. 6) The application form dates back to 1997. 7) Looking at the MBNA examples page - the comment is that it may be valid & no default charges are mentioned. 8) The T&C give a monthly interest rate (& some APR's for different types of transaction which I cannot read). 9) Minimum payment is stated as 3% or £5 per month except in conditions 9.4, 10.5 & 10.6 (WHICH are not shown). 10) No indication of term mentioned 11) no default charge information is present. 12) Only mention of amount of credit is the phrase 'We will from time to time choose the credit limit and notify you of this'. 13) The front sheet is larger than the supposed rear sheet - is this realistic? Some on the MBNA examples thread seem to be similar to this. DO #8, #9, #10, #11 & #12 ABOVE CONSTITUTE SUFFICIENT INFORMATION TO BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESCRIBED TERMS? Second - the default notice. Not really looked into this yet but read some threads about them being invalid & not issued within correct time scales. Any thoughts on this one? I have not kept envelopes & only read this tip after it was too late. Third - the Court papers. I have another 11 days to respond so no desperate panic yet. Can also add another 14 days to submit defence. Optima have also written again. Having written to advise them I am out of work & demanded a copy of the agreement they have declined to enter into correspondence & sent the letter on to MBNA. I still do not have an agreement other than this application form. How will a judge look at their refusal to deal with the CPR request or any attempt to resolve this without resorting to court? I have just sent a SAR to MBNA. I am putting together an embarrassed defence & will post it when I have finished. A lot of questions in this post - sorry. Many thanks to everyone who has offered help so far. Cheers BM. Bugger - wrote this as a quick reply & can't add attachments - they are attached to a separate post below.

Thanks Vint 1954. Have done so under MBNA v Blood Money

Hi Guys, Received court papers from Northamptom Bulk Centre. Optima acting for MBNA. Have got a copy of a signed application form which I think is non compliant - but difficult to be sure as bits are illegible & MBNA refuse to send me anything else. Clock is now ticking on court response. I will get the particulars of claim, application form & default posted up as soon as Ive removed all info. In the meantime I've written to Optima expressing suprise they have commenced proceedings without checking there is a valid agreement in place & ignored my request for a copy under CPR. I'm out of work now & in negative equity. In the absence of something I can read properly from MBNA I think there is something called an embarrassed defence I picked up from other threads. Worth trying? Alternatively can I start case for disclosure? As they jumped in 1st is it too late to start now & is it worth doing given a paper trail of many recorded delivery letters, 5 of which ask MBNA/Optima for CPR disclosure? Initial thoughts please. I don't want thes buggers to win but equally I can't afford to have a CCJ against me. BM.

Right - we are down to the nasty bit now. Optima have issued a claim down at Northampton County Court Bulk Centre. I need to file a defence & still haven't got a fully legible copy from MBNA or Optima (claim they have requested it from MBNA). Need to decide tactics here. Is it too late to get an action going for CPR disclosure or do I try to do an embarrassed defence (if that is the right term). Any other suggestions? One for the legal eagles please as the clock is now ticking. BM

Yep - use Stoney & Capenwray. Was going to make a 'rubber' comment in last post but thought better of it. Nothing close to where I live apart from a murky lake about 10 mtr deep. Long drive to get to anywhere worth getting wet for. Just been reading other MBNA posts - really is a difficult call to make. Credit rating is stuffed now so might as well fight - but don't want a CCJ if lose.

Sorry for not posting for a few days - trying to sort out a job - thought all problems over - ha ha - should have known better. Anyway, DG - thanks for the offer. Much appreciated. If it all gets nasty I'll might take you up on that. As Vint 1954 says - don't worry - a job is a job. VINT1954 - thanks for the link - one of mine does not exactly match any of these & the other dates back earlier than 2000. If there is no signature from the lender is it enforcable? We did sign applications - but have nothing else. There is no default charge information on the agreements - I seem to remember this is important after/before a certain date but can't find the thread with the information now. Trying to decide if all the prescribed info is present & if in right format to be enforcable - difficult to read. I have sent a version of your letter to Optima along with demand for a true copy under CPR. Also repeated my offer to visit to view the original. Will have to wait & see what they say now. SCUBADIVER - where do you get wet? StoneyCove/Capernwray/St Abbs?

Give you all a laugh. I know of someone who has requested a copy of his agreement. He has had no calls from MBNA but immediately following the request he has been contacted by a DCA regarding his payments. The thing is he isnt in arrears - his payments are up to date! Jumping the gun me thinks.

Thanks DG. If it's not a rude question what sort of work do you do & how do you come across Optima? How can you help? I am copying Optima in on all previous correspondence & repeating the CPR request & offer to view the originals at their offices. They are going to look like right prats if they go to court having refused. Crafting my letter now. Anyone else on here had any dealings with Optima?

MBNA definately dont like me. Don't think I'm on their christmas card list anymore. Got a 14 day letter on the other a/c now. Letter is still full of may's, if's and might's. Strange thing it is different to the letter on the 1st a/c. Perhaps someone got bored & used a different template for a change. Just going to have to deal with them both at the same time now.

Hi Dave, Will wade through the piles of trash they have sent us to see if actually have a default yet. Both agreements are well before 2004. What does everyone thing about getting in with the CPA demand via the courts 1st - if the solicitors won't send one & continue to ignore the requests. BM

Cheers DG, My thought is to demand a copy from Optima under CPR. From their website it looks like they are more geared to cheap bulk processing than getting involved in protracted individual correspondence. I guess they will either ignore my request & continue with their action, or pass this back to MBNA if they are unable to send a true copy. I would also rather instigate an action to force disclosure rather than wait for them to go for a charging order. They still need a CCJ though & to get that they will have to produce the true CCA. BL

Hi Road to Recovery, I've had the doorstep threats. I sent the don't visit me letter & they never did. My wife also v-unhappy with calls & threats. Now got solicitors threatening charging order on the house. Re read their letter this morning & still lots of may's & if's in the letter. Bit more cheerful than I was last night. Have you posted your agreement/application form on here for the experts on the site (not me I'm afraid) to give an opinion? If your agreement is old there is probably a good chance it is not enforcable in which case after a bit of fighting that wil be one less debt to worry about. If it is valid at least you know & can come to some arrangement with them directly or through CAB or someone similar. At least the CCA s78 shows they are having trouble - or they would have sent you it by now (or a cut & paste version). Ask for a 'true copy' using the CPR route - also offer to visit offices to view the original. If it does go further you will have been seen to be doing all you can to avoid courts. Some on here have been successful taking the Co to court to demand disclosure. If they can't produce the original/true copy they are in trouble. Relatively cheap. This is almost certainly my next step. I hope your wife can understand the threats are just bully boy tactics to try & wear you down. We have had hundreds of phone calls & visit threats. We just put the phone down, swear at them now & again or put the phone next to the telly to give them something to listen to & brighten up their miserable existence. I sympathise with your wife - it is not much fun & these people are ****. I hope she can be strong. If the CCA is not enforcable it will all go away eventually & the pain now is worth it not to have to pay later. BM