Hi pdaddy, I'm going through this at the moment with MBNA - bit further along now - waiting for a hearing date. Don't take the calls - they will get nasty & make threats & try to bully you into paying while ignoring anything you ask for - they really are quite rude! I had one particularly obnoxious idiot who kept ringing back when I hung up. I started putting the phone next to the TV so he wouldn't get lonely talking to himself. The calls soon stopped. Make the same request for the 'true certified copy of the agreement' only this time do it under CPR rules assuming they are making threats of further action. None of this will make the slightest difference - they really are a******s. Treat the DCA's the same way & if they threaten to call round send the standard letter revoking permission for them to do so. Keep a log of everything & don't throw envelopes away - especially the one with the default notice when it comes. Once they have ignored the CPR request you have a choice - sit back & wait for them to start legal action or sell the debt on or give up - or instigate your own legal action for disclosure. I didn't do the SAR request until they instructed solicitors then you have all the information - suprise suprise they now cant provide a copy of the agreement due to retrieval problems. I have got to the point where they are going for summary judgement & trying to take the house. I followed Sunflower's route & at this point instructed a solicitor under a CFA agreement. I'm now looking forward to MBNA getting mugged in court. You can do the court bit yourself if you have time & are confident in being able to counter all their arguments & recognise the bulls**t. Just remember the judge is unlikely to help & it is up to you to pick holes in their arguements & defend your own position. I decided that as my house was at stake & the solicitor is free under a CFA agreement (assuming he likes your case) it would be nice for MBNA's solicitors to have a chat with my barrister in court. My wife is a lot happier now & the pressure is off. All the best & chin up. BM

Cheers CB. I'll get the defence finished off & post it up to make sure I have not said anything stupid. Without the 'Letter before Action' I take it Optima have boobed? Is it worth putting in the defence at this stage? BM

Thanks CB That 2nd one probably fits the bit better. Will need to amend as CPR letters are 2 formal requests + last chance before ask court to force disclosure letter + x2 requests via Optima (the last one of which they wrote back & refused to enter into dialogue & referred me to MBNA). Should look good in court. I have had no 7 day letter. I did get a letter asking for proposals to settle arrears & respond within 14 days or MAY commence legal action without further notice. Does this count as a Letter before Action? Do I send the letter (& attached copy of the defence) to Optima AND the defence to the court (with a copy of the Optima letter)? I take it from your comment you do not feel the application form is a valid agreement - or am I putting words into your mouth? Thanks for help so far. BM

Thanks for input Rob & CB. 1. I used CPR 31.16. That was what was on the template I downloaded. Is this wrong? 2. The DN Letter states the payment they require. It refers to repaying the 'amount of any arrears on the account' but does not say the payment required is the arrears amount. It does not ask for the full amount. 3. It gives the balance but not the credit limit. 4. There is no agreement number on the POC. 5. They sent my current T&C. 6. They sent what they calim are original T&C but these are incomplete. Please read post#4. The T&C refer to other T&C which I did not receive & could not have been part of the original agreement - there is not room on the form & why have 1 set of T&C referring to another set of T&C on the same document? It would all be one. 7. I have sent off a SAR request. 8. I am sending a CPR request for proof of 1st class postage. Any thoughts on the application form/agreement? I dont see a link from front to back page, there are many T&C referrals to paragraphs not present, etc. Please see my comments in post#4. Is this valid? I don't see how it can be.

Hi Sunshine, I've been through loads of posts - gone square eyed! But I'm no solicitor & I could do with some assurance that I have got my facts right before I go to court. Time is getting a bit short now & could really use some help with this.

Hi Rob, Thanks for that. I've had a look at the thread & can use a lot of the embarrassed defence wording if I go this route. I could really do with someone commenting on post #4 and my comment on the DN in post #15. Time is ticking by very fast now. Thoughts anyone? BM

Hi Rob, Dated 22/06/09 & given till 10/07/09. 19 days in total (including date sent) 4 of these days were Sat & Sun's. No bank holidays. Didn't keep the envelope & can't remember if 1st or 2nd post or date received. Unless there is anything wrong with the wording I dont think this is going to help me. BUT - the DN refers to paragraph 8 of the agreement & repayment of arrears. In the T&C sent to me paragraph 8 is about the APR. Backs up that this is an app form & not an agreement. Any thoughts?

Hi DG, Yes the 'Right to Cancel' is on the front page. Is this important? The Default Notice gave 19 days. Get well soon - all the best. I would be grateful if someone could comment on the points raised in post #4. BM

Cheers Redfish, will be interested to see what he says. BM.

Hi Redfish, Did it go to court & if so what hapened or is yours still ongoing? I'd rather be on stronger ground than just this one point if possible.

Bump

Bump

Here they are. Application Form.PDF Default Notice.pdf Court Papers.pdf BM

Thanks for advice Bazaar & DG. Finally got the stuff depersonalized & scanned. I have posted everything up now. First - the Application form (alleged CCA) & the T & C they sent me. These have been posted before & are very poor copies. 1) I can't see anything linking the front to the back page. 2) There are T & C which refer to other T&C clauses which are just not there (eg 2.1, 8.11, 9.1, 9.4, 10.5, 10.6, 14.1, 15). 3) The T&C refer to other MBNA Credit Card T&C. The phrase used is: 'Set out in paragraphs 1-12 below are Conditions S and 9 of the MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions of use. The other conditions referred to in those paragraphs and the applicable definitions can be found in those Terms and Conditions' I do not have these T & C and should ALL T&C be contained within an agreement for it to be valid? 4) No space for MBNA representative to sign & no MBNA signature. 5) The application has got my signature on it. 6) The application form dates back to 1997. 7) Looking at the MBNA examples page - the comment is that it may be valid & no default charges are mentioned. 8) The T&C give a monthly interest rate (& some APR's for different types of transaction which I cannot read). 9) Minimum payment is stated as 3% or £5 per month except in conditions 9.4, 10.5 & 10.6 (WHICH are not shown). 10) No indication of term mentioned 11) no default charge information is present. 12) Only mention of amount of credit is the phrase 'We will from time to time choose the credit limit and notify you of this'. 13) The front sheet is larger than the supposed rear sheet - is this realistic? Some on the MBNA examples thread seem to be similar to this. DO #8, #9, #10, #11 & #12 ABOVE CONSTITUTE SUFFICIENT INFORMATION TO BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESCRIBED TERMS? Second - the default notice. Not really looked into this yet but read some threads about them being invalid & not issued within correct time scales. Any thoughts on this one? I have not kept envelopes & only read this tip after it was too late. Third - the Court papers. I have another 11 days to respond so no desperate panic yet. Can also add another 14 days to submit defence. Optima have also written again. Having written to advise them I am out of work & demanded a copy of the agreement they have declined to enter into correspondence & sent the letter on to MBNA. I still do not have an agreement other than this application form. How will a judge look at their refusal to deal with the CPR request or any attempt to resolve this without resorting to court? I have just sent a SAR to MBNA. I am putting together an embarrassed defence & will post it when I have finished. A lot of questions in this post - sorry. Many thanks to everyone who has offered help so far. Cheers BM. Bugger - wrote this as a quick reply & can't add attachments - they are attached to a separate post below.

Thanks Vint 1954. Have done so under MBNA v Blood Money