As mentioned above Buzby: House of Lords - Schalk Willem Burger Lubbe (Suing as Administrator of the Estate of Rachel Jacoba Lubbe) and 4 Others and Cape Plc. and Related Appeals I can find nothing over-ruling this judgement yet - but I'm open to you backing up your assertions with something. So far, to me, it looks as if you certainly CAN sue PayPal in the UK. The relevent section is Subbed as:

Buzby, it appears that under both the Hague and Lugano conventions you are entitled to claim against PayPal in the UK Courts whilst giving their Luxembourg name and address as the Defendant. You must of course make reasonable steps to contact them by way of a LBA before issuing your summons, as per any other company or individual, ie it isn't strictly neccesary but advisable and "polite". I will dig further, I'm sure you cant wait for the outcome I will also look into thier liability under the Data Protection Act and contractual law - put very simply, unless they are in privity with the buyer and the seller (and they are not with either) I *think* they are breaking the law by enforcing a change of contract terms on either, or both parties.

OK, thats a starter for ten: when is a company trading in the UK to UK citizens excempt from UK consumer law and excempt from UK Civil Law? Do you know that? Another point: I wasnt aware that - eg - if a summons was served on a company registered at Companys House (ie a bona fide British Company) they could claim exemmption from UK civil and criminal law simply by stating their head office is in another country. Are you sure thats correct? Is there precedent for such a thing?

Looks as if they still do Blitz, as per 192.com: Paypal (Europe) Ltd Carmelite 50 Victoria Embankment Fleet Street London EC4Y 0DX Tel. 020 8439 2000

Just spent an hour perusing threads on paypal via search You seem to have quite a soft spot for PayPal Buzby As is you keep making this point old chap - if the buyer had paid cash, PayPal couldn't be robbing me, eh? Leaving aside that I think you're wrong about going through Europe - what do you make of this address Buzby? PAYPAL (EUROPE) LTD WHITTAKER HOUSE WHITTAKER AVENUE RICHMOND SURREY TW9 1EH UK trading company, and therefore subject to UK law, perhaps?

Ah, thank you

In. Whats the latest on nailing these thieves?

Nowhere in their terms does it state "we will misappropriate funds paid to us in good faith" or "We will force your buyer to alter the terms of your contract with them" or "We reserve the right to force onerous terms upon you contrary to the legally binding contract between you and a third party." If I'm wrong... point away. I'm here to learn. ? PayPal trade from Irish offices. When you have to send validation documents they are sent to Eire, not Luxembourg, besides which, I believe I'm right in saying that if you trade in the UK, you are subject to UK laws by default? Could you check on that?

Just that... they've arbritrarily witheld nearly £400 of mine demanding that I send goods to the buyers before they release (after the buyer has said alls good, of course) I think thats illegal regardless of PayPals T&Cs - my contract is with the buyer, who bid on a No Returns basis and Immediate Payment terms. Anyone got any pointers to any relevant threads or experiences? Cheers LotM

OK, thanks Steven - so from that, I gather that the best way to hit them is for processing data without an agreement? - this, since they clearly, and knowingly, didnt have one? (And thanks Hunni, I will delve further, been rather busy )

OK, done a little bit of scratching around and I want to send them a follow up letter Two questions, which I'd be grateful if someone in the know could answer and point to the relevant info :- 1) Is it still a criminal offence to not comply with a CCA request? (was that part repealed or is it still valid?) 2) If someone processes your data without a contract, do they break the Data Protection Act? If so, how?

Thanks Rhia anyone else got any different suggestions?

OK, so letter duly sent and recieved, giving them 7 working days to stop obfuscating and cough up. Lets assume that they don't... Can somebody fill me in on the steps I can take regarding: 1) Non-compliance with CCA request 2) Non-compliance with an SAR 3) Processing my data when they clearly had no right to, vis, no contract between me and them and no possesion of either: a) a bona fide Notice of Assignment b) any form of agreement between them and me Thanks Mo

Thanks Hunni

Great minds think alike

Yes it was Hunni, and that was my defence, which I put in to get the FCO on my then house they'd been granted Set Aside, and it went forward to the "re-trial" that they subsequently bottled out of. I don't really know what an AQ is, as I've never done one. when they discontinued, although they were aware at the Set Aside of my travel and obviously my court costs. Nope, not yet... I'm not really clear how to, and frankly getting the money back they've cost me is my first priority...

Slept on this, and I'm wondering wether the easiest way is write to them demanding the costs, give them 7 days to comply then kick off a small claims case against them? I'm fairly happy that Morgans (as per usual) are talking out of their rz / dissembling in an effort to confuse, and that under CPR27 I'm due "something", certainly my travel costs which are substantial, plus £50 attendance, but that wont recompense me for the rest of it, and leaves me having to (yet again) travel backwards and forwards in order to attend a hearing, which is my reservation on doing it through the Court via a default costs certificate since I cant see how or where I will be compensated for that? I'm sort of drafting a letter in my head during today, along these lines, so if anyone has anything to add or subtract please fire away:

Cheers Steven I found this... Who Pays Court Costs and Fees? - About Small Claims (UK) I'm not saying its definitive, but on the face of it... it looks as though Morgans are crap solicitors who cant even Google ... who'da thunk it??

Theres no such thing as bad publicity* Rhia - especially when its free publicity. * Unless you're a company that twists the law, gives the legal system the finger, lies through it's teeth and bullies people as a "business model"

Maybe I should invite him on my MySpace? Be handy for his monkey-master to know who's going to be dragging him through the media spotlight when all this is over Thank you Rhia, makes interesting reading. I hope I can get a definitive on this, because I then have a couple of choices: either travel backwards and forwards to the UK (at their expense) to take them through court myself or just set the dogs on them and let them pay a proper solicitors costs.

Update: Sent a copy of the costs sheet to Morgans (which is what Cabots are calling their in-house solicitors this week ) and the Court. Got the following replies back today: From Morgans: OK, so is this right? wrong? More bullshizen? :-? And from the Court, I recieved this in the same post, which strangley enough doesnt say "LotM aint entitled to costs cos it was in the Small Claims track" So... can anyone explain what I should do now please? Cheers Mo

Thanks Rhia and to everyone for your input - so, I can send this as it is to both the Court and Morgan/Cabot/whoever they are this week just as it stands with no alteration or additions? If thats so I will get that sent to them tomorrow. If it helps anyone, heres my Defence as put:

Well spotted, and thanks Can someone tell me if I've completed it right, and what I actually do with the bl**dy thing? :grin: Do I post it to the Court? or to the Judge that would have heard the case? Cheers

Its a good thought, but ... b*ll*cks to them

OK, I had a quick look at SurfaceAgents post in there, and this is what I come up with, so can someone run there eye over it for any mistakes or ommisions please? I expect Cabot will enjoy paying for me to travel backwards and forwards to the UK.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Case No: xxxxxx IN THE xxxxxxxx COUNTY COURT B E T W E E N: Cabot Financial (Claimant) -and- Last of the Mohicans (Defendant) DEFENDANT’S BILL OF COSTS After Service of the Claimant’s Notice of Discontinuance. Costs Payable by the Claimant CPR 38.6 and CPR 44.12(1)(d) On (date) the Claimant served Notice of Discontinuance of the whole of its claim. At all times the Defendant was a Litigant in Person within the meaning of Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975 and time spent by the Defendant is charged herein at an hourly rate of £9.25. The nature of the case being one of relitigation required the Defendant to spend time in locating and examining the documents and other papers which related to the proceedings begun by the Claimant. The Defendant was obliged to spend time in considering and understanding numerous strands of law including the law of consumer credit, the law of limitation and practice and procedure in the County Court which he achieved through internet and library research. The Defendant was obliged to learn of and understand and further send to the Claimant a request under the Consumer Credit Act for a copy of the original agreement which the Claimant should have had in their possession prior to commencing their claim against the Defendant, and further write to the Claimant when the Claimant admitted that they were not in possession of the agreement they had based their vexatious claim upon. The Defendant was obliged to learn of and understand and further send to the Claimant a request under the Data Protection Act for a copy of the original agreement and other papers which the Claimant should have had in their possession prior to commencing their claim against the Defendant, and further write to the Claimant when the Claimant admitted that they were not in possession of the agreement they had based their vexatious claim upon. The Defendant was obliged to travel within the UK to xxxxxxxx County Court in order to pay £75 to request a Set Aside hearing, and prepare a defence to place with that request. The Defendant was obliged to spend time in drawing his defence and application to Set Aside in a way which complied with the relevant rules and practice directions of the CPR. The Defendant was obliged to travel from France to the UK specifically in order to attend the Set Aside hearing on (DATE), the total journey time of the Defendant being in total approximately 24 hours (outward and return) plus fuel and wear and tear on the Defendants vehicle consistent with driving for a total of approximately 600 miles, including approximately 40 miles local travel to and from court. The defendants vehicle is capable (at best) of approximately 22 miles to the gallon, giving a total cost to the Defendant for fuel of £630, plus the costs of ferry travel and travel insurance from France to the UK and the UK to France, this item being a total of £148.00. Whilst in the UK for the Set Aside hearing, the Defendant contributed to his lodging costs with a friend, but chooses not to claim for this expense in the interests of simplicity. The Defendant was further obliged to consider the Notice of Discontinuance and its effect upon the litigation and his consequential rights and obligations to include his rights and obligations upon the matter of costs and the relevant rules and practice directions of the CPR in reference to the detailed assessments of costs as applied to Litigants in Person. The following is a statement of the work done in the course of the proceedings, in addition to the travel expenses noted above. Where there is a charge for time spent, the amount of time recorded as spent represents the Defendants fair estimate of the amount of time spent by him Claimed (£) 1 Date Particulars of claim 2 Date Acknowledgement of Service 3 Date Defence 3 4 Date Receiving and considering the Claim Form and Particulars of Claim (3 hrs) £27.75 Searching for and locating the papers and other documents relating to proceedings (4 hrs) £37.00 Research regarding consumer credit law, the Data Protection Act, the law of limitation and law regarding relitigation (30 hrs) £277.50 Preparing Defence (4 hrs) £37.00 Preparing Set Aside Application (4 hrs) £37.00 Delivering by hand the Defendant's Application to Set Aside (4 hrs) £37 PAID: court Fee £75.00 Preparing and delivering to the Claimant a Subject Access Data request made under the Data Protection Act (4 hrs) £37 Receiving and considering Notice of Discontinuance (1 hr) £9.25 Research regarding CPR 38.6 and CPR 44.12 (10 hrs) £92.50 Research regarding detailed assessment proceedings and Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975 (10 hrs) £92.50 Preparing bill of costs and notice of commencement of costs proceedings (6 hrs) £55.50 Time spent in telephone calls (from France, and within the UK) letters and emails written and received (8 hrs) £74 Travel costs as noted above: Defendants time: (24 hrs) £222.00 Defendants fuel costs and wear and tear of vehicle: (£1 per litre fuel, plus 50% for wear and tear over 630 miles) £195.44 Defendants ferry costs: £148.00 Defendants time attending Set Aside hearing: (5 hrs) £46.25 Summary: Costs payable by the Claimant £1388.69 Disbursements (court fee) 75.00 Total costs payable by the CLAIMANT £1463.69 Dated: Signed: Edit: Ooops, fuel costs were wrong... forgot to divide by mileage :oP