yes - correct. The horrible Bailiff has no levy - hiding behind the usual barrage of lies, mis information , and the bully tactic bull**** threats . if these clowns had not been the dishonest greedy fee inflating (SWEARWORD) that they are , i would have willingly entered into a repayment plan with them. As it is we have done exactly what we said. (Our line of Attack/Defence is exactly on a Par with TheGreenPimpernels) we sold assets to fund the debt .. Simple solution Funds from this sale - pay the bailiff co (actually the council) commercial transaction is valid All plant and equipment in premises belong to another company - balance sheet reflects this. Assets sale cost = rates amount bailiff demand -so a valid entry in the accounts system, New co rents assets to old co --- assets are now safe ---- ALL COMPANIES SHOULD DO THIS - you place assets out of reach and in a place of safety. Our local business forum and councillors helped us out here, they applied pressure to the Rates people, local regeneration people and anyone who would listen, in this case our council have accepted a monthly repayment proposal but insist it is paid to bailiff co. so we pay £2.5k a month for a couple of months now its just a case of contesting fees . we will change tenancy name and hence billing liabiity next month so a new NDR bill will go out to another Newco Credit of NDR to old co - for remainder of year - Payments are then up to date --- old liability then discharged so Bailiffs out of equation. Then its just a case of keeping my cashflow fluid enough to stay on top of liabilities. Thanks to all non bailiff supporters for your valuable and welcomed help. To all the bailiffs and their supporters , Go and harass someone else !!

crooked mob are charging 339.50 on this no levy no wp no brains !!!! rates debt is £8800

well in that case he has no levy he has not been in except to drop letter off to ask me for contact - so only one bull**** letter asking me to call him no list, lads in unit are under instruction to dismember said bailiff if he tries to enter ( we can hide the body parts in our skip ) and charge the bailiff company for disposal - see how thy like our tacktics and fees Yes I have written to the council explaining our offer and proposal. I also have a local business group applying pressure to the council and if no Joy - I will enter a column in our local paper explaining how helpful our local council is and advise any potential businesses or developers to seek an alternative location. why would anyone wish to introduce money and services into a borough that does not identify with and support employment and growth. Im not worried about fees at moment - i can get these back if needed. im more interested in reducing my dealings and exposure to these cowboy collectors.

Fees not broken down - just the std pre-typed bull**** letter "pay up £10k+ within 48hrs or we come and take your goods -" hand written envelope (unsealed) handwritten name and phone number - contact me urgently **** As it is well documented that many Bailiff co's invent fee's and charges we can safely assume their is some creative accounting within - i will request a breakdown shortly - for now I am not entering into discussion with these bandits unless its to agree on an affordaple payment plan, I want to remove the immediate pressure - then I will tackle the fees etc . We know we are behind in payments ? although we are late in payment ( 2 months) due to a bad debt making a huge hole in our cashflow -- our local council were writing to our old registered office and not the actual premises they sent original rates bill to our current premises but appear to have sent reminders and liability order to our old registered office ( we moved reg office more than 12 months ago) yet the bailiff had the correct address . when we phoned and explained this - they were dismissive and said they cannot now cancel bailiffs as they have been instructed. This is absolute Boll##ks - the bailiffs are working for them and they can call it back. Remember - i am not avoiding payment - i have offered to pay a couple of grand off arrears and a £1500 a month to the bailiffs to discharge this - they have point blank refused to take any payment plan .. this is a brilliant business ethick .. NOT !! I will be on the councils case today to see/talk to director of finance / restructure a payment plan - im not taking this lightly. I have shut shop for the time being and placed security in my unit - no one is getting in until this is sorted.

Hi Surfer01 it is a limited company, Hallowitch I do not have the breakdown on fees but suspect there is a good £1300+ added I will request a breakdown on fees, but for now I have the unit on lockdown ..The bailiff is not getting in. Ploddertom I understand your statement on the debt being due on the 1st of April - and that as a dispensation we are allowed to pay monthly. I would not be in this position if I and followed this business model, I wish I could charge my customers in advance for work and services I have not yet provided !! - it would be brilliant - no more worries But alas - we cannot:sad: However if I occupied the unit for 6 months, then I would only owe 50% of the rates & if I left after 4 months I would only owe 33% etc. Its the concept of the council using the prepayment in full option instructing bailiffs ( Akin to loan sharks) to go in heavy handed. This is an appalling practice My point is that there is no help or leeway on offer - they would prefer to put me out of business. more worryingly for me though , is the collection techniques involved and my personal experience in this case ,indicates that the council are actively supporting the Licenced Crooks in intimidating businesses and forcing business to close and people out jobs. How does forcing a company out of business , resulting in the loss of jobs for 8 persons benefit the economy or society in general ? (staying at home watching Jeremy Kyle, waiting for our dole money so we can go shopping, slipping behind with our mortgages, etc , etc ) Surely it makes better commercial sense to keep people employed and a business running - that way we contribute to the economy and not drain it , people in employment, Businesses paying taxes etc is a better alternative to empty buildings and people claiming benefits. I am disappointed that the council operate like this and also at the low level of protection we have from bailiffs and this course of intimidation

Obviously we have some bailiffs or pro bailiff supporters on here . its fine - we all have an opinion It is obvious that you have not read the thread. before you make a judgement or offer an opinion - read the thread Be aware that my intention is not to avoid rates or the debt - i will pay, i just cant pay 10K rates in advance i have offered to pay the current arrears in full and the remaining years liability as and when it falls due - It is wise to remember that I have not occupied the building for full tax year Rates are calculated over a 12 month period and by demanding payment in full , I am in effect paying in advance for services not yet provided, I offered to pay the current arrears, 1 month in front and ongoing monthly payment installments but they will not accept part payment and a plan, Why is it considered acceptable for the Bailiff to say " Pay up the 10k immediately or I will force entry and remove your goods- i am not accepting a part payment - pay it all or loose your business" Yes - this is really what was said and he even told me that " i am paying in advance for rates on a unit - i will no longer occupy because we will be shutting you down !" When I said - Ive not been in the unit for a full year so I am paying upfront - He laughed at me He said you could claim any overpayment back off the council - but because your business is closed you will not get it instead of working with me to get paid, they take the stance that its better to force me out of business by insisting on payment upfront for rates - So in answer to the previous threads regarding Evasion of business rates (I strongly suspect these are from bailiffs) THIS is not a con job to evade payment - its a desperate attempt to save the business and jobs , it is a work around for a win win solution, My objective is for the rates liability for the year to date (overdue) get paid - they are not in dispute and we can pay them on Monday. and the rateable liability for the remainder ends up on a structured payment plan with monthly payments that are achievable. I am only on here and in this situation because the stupid bailiff company working with the council find it easier to enforce and intimidate rather than co-operate and mediate. Reply

Obviously we have some bailiffs or pro bailiff supporters on here . its fine - we all have an opinion It is obvious that you have not read the thread. before you make a judgement or offer an opinion - read the thread Be aware that my intention is not to avoid rates or the debt - i will pay, i just cant pay 10K rates in advance i have offered to pay the current arrears in full and the remaining years liability as and when it falls due - It is wise to remember that I have not occupied the building for full tax year Rates are calculated over a 12 month period and by demanding payment in full , I am in effect paying in advance for services not yet provided, I offered to pay the current arrears, 1 month in front and ongoing monthly payment installments but they will not accept part payment and a plan, Why is it considered acceptable for the Bailiff to say " Pay up the 10k immediately or I will force entry and remove your goods- i am not accepting a part payment - pay it all or loose your business" Yes - this is really what was said and he even told me that " i am paying in advance for rates on a unit - i will no longer occupy because we will be shutting you down !" When I said - Ive not been in the unit for a full year so I am paying upfront - He laughed at me He said you could claim any overpayment back off the council - but because your business is closed you will not get it instead of working with me to get paid, they take the stance that its better to force me out of business by insisting on payment upfront for rates - So in answer to the previous threads regarding Evasion of business rates (I strongly suspect these are from Bailiffs) THIS is not a con job to evade payment - its a desperate attempt to save the business and jobs , it is a work around for a win win solution, My objective is for the rates liability for the year to date (overdue) get paid - they are not in dispute and we can pay them on Monday. and the rateable liability for the remainder ends up on a structured payment plan with monthly payments that are achievable. I am only on here and in this situation because the stupid bailiff company working with the council find it easier to enforce and intimidate rather than co-operate and mediate.

this is really a paperwork exercise - so insurance etc not a huge problem Lease maybe - unless It allows me to sublease - I will look the object is to throw a spanner in the works with the bailiff so all money is not due now ,IE payment in advance for rates - they are now chasing a full year The idea is to revert back to orig company when the new agreement had been reached - All i want is to do is get back onto a pay as you go rates agreement. cost is low - was going to buy a cheap off the shelf company or do online formation.

ok - we have been on the phone to the local rates people i have tried to get local Authority to take it back, offering to pay up to date (£2k of arrears) they have refused - saying its contracted out to bailiffs - i must deal with them I explained that the bailiff would not accept or even discuss payment structure - the Rates people were not interested. i said we would only pay the local authority, they said all they would do is tell the bailiff we had part paid and to continue to collect the remaining debt, Any ideas or advice on how to continue ? If i register a new business at the address and contact the rates , would the rates simply issue a new bill in the new business name ? thereby from today or this week onwards a new company would be liable for the rates ? This would have the effect of reducing the current liability ( short term) to the existing company and a credit would be issued for the remainder of the year. That way the total liability would be around £3k - which is manageable - we could then enter into a payment plan with business rates for the new company and get the desired monthly payment structure A win win situation - is this viable , do- able ?

Ok I have been back to work to do some housekeeping to ensure there is nothing of value outside. any vehicles that may be associated with the company have been moved to a secure compound away from the premises. doors will be kept locked, staff sent home if need be

Thanks, I am phoning the council and Bus helpline first thing but they don't answer phones until 9.00 am or later what if this guy turns up early ? Is it worthwhile paying the current arrears online using a credit or debit card - I owe 1 or 2 months so max of £2500 that way I am back up to date , would this be beneficial I am still worried , -

I have read the factsheet on Business rates that you linked, But I am a bit confused - or maybe I am being more stupid than usual, Am I correct in assuming that because nothing was signed and no list was issued, the bailiff has not levied, If so - do I just keep the building locked - I am not sure how practical this is and how long we can do it for? I will move any vehicles or goods outside so they are not identified as being the businesses - I have already offered to repay at a rate that is affordable but this has been rejected - I phoned the bailiff an hour ago and made the offer of £2000 on Monday then £1000per month , he said I am wasting his time - all the money in the morning or he attends with a van in morning to remove goods. can he do this.- he still insists he has right or breaking or forcing entry. Page 3 of the factsheet in the link states " Do not open the door to them. If they get inside, the bailiffs usually have a right to enter again by using force, for example by breaking in to remove your goods: and do not open the door to them. If they get inside, the bailiffs usually have a right to enter again by using force, for example by breaking in to remove your goods; " does this mean he can come back and force entry because he has been in to drop letter off - or am I worrying too much ? Or am I contacting the council (Authority) to request they take the debt back ? or am I asking for remission ? I can phone them in the morning or go and see them, still confused - and very worried. [quote=unclebulgaria67;43 14967]This will help you. http://www.bdl.org.uk/images/04_EW%20Business%20rates.pdf

He has already entered the premises to drop the letter off, has he gained peacefull entry allowing him to return and enter at any time ?? I can keep the unit locked and instruct any workers to either take the day off or use the fire exit - keeping remainder of building locked at all times - but I need a plan , I cant keep hiding .

Hi I have returned to my works to a letter from a bailiff for business rates. I am behind on a payment plan with local authority , now they have instructed bailiffs who are demand full rates for a year almost £10,000. I have phoned the bailiff up asking for a payment plan - he point blank refused, he said all money (£10k) or they attend tomorrow and remove goods, if that happens - I am out of business, its over for me - I explained this to him and said I would do monthly payments - surely that's better all round, he said they will force entry tomorrow to gain access as he has already made peaceful entry - when he delivered letter. what can I do - ? I though maybe a change company name or new company formation so rates from today onwards in a different company name :- the liability on the existing company would only Be April to Now - reducing debt to around £3,500 If I had the money I would have paid , we are struggling at the moment but can do £1000 month maybe we could pay arrears £2000 ish to council there are plenty of assets - just no cashflow. If they are taken -I am screwed, they will go for scrap value and I will be out of business. any help please ?

Hi stripper, thankyou for your interest, This forum appears to have gone a little quiet lately and the feedback or open advice is not as fluent or directional as it used to be when I first joined , that said, it has been a great source of information and encouragement during some of my bleakest times when i felt very alone, No Not Hit a wall, As I understand it , Pre 1985 cca request is met by simply providing statement and current terms (s9) but this is only to serves them in their obligation of the CCA s78 request, however as they have stated the account inception date is .... pre 1985 and not supported this via evidence , i have asked the OC (via their solicitors) for information / documentary evidence on account inception date, simply by request, if that fails i will use CPR18, If they cant prove its a pre 1985 account , their s9 reply to cca s79 is also weakened, and the onus should again fall on OC and their solicitors to have the document in court to enforce If Andyorch is online , perhaps he could comment on my understanding and reasoning, see if I am on the right track, he has a better grasp of this than i Its court again soon so we are at final stages of gathering info and coming up with a good robust defence, remember though, Its non enforcement that I am after - not debt avoidance.

Hi Andyorch, the claimants list did not provide anything new or on the face of it worrying. I did however request copies of many items on their list - which to date they have failed to supply. they have made a couple of "without prejudice" requests for payment proposals - whilst still ignoring my request how do i get them to send the info requested, also if i wish to use newspaper articles or discussions relating to the common practice of issuing cards without agreement including the documented practice of the banks sending of cards to customers via unsolicited mail do i need to disclose it now or have i missed the oppertunity, or can i simply state the practice and make reference during my witness statement or during future proceedings

I agree, it may help others. im still not sure on how we proceed on our case, Ill keep reading. hopefully someone may offer a pointer

i have read the regs (not easy going) are we talking of a breach of regulation 7 - in relation to a modification to an agreement (change of name etc). Compliance with the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 requires a copy of the fresh agreement containing the relevant prescribed information to be served on the debtor? would they not argue its the same agreement (credit token) and no change has taken place , or should i be looking elsewhere, I found a judgement case in favour of the defendant " Santander-v-Dianna Mehew" DJ Manners from March 2012, where Santander had not complied with regulation 7 when changing a card type found here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/16.4.12_santandermayhewjudgement.pdf Also thei HSBC s9 overcoming s78 of the CCA, - does this affect my original intention / reliance upon the carey case (requiring an agreement to be produced in court to enable enforcement

Also looking at the notice of allocation - fast track, I only have 30 days to submit my statements of witnesses ( to stand as evidence in chief ) is this where we do our defence ?

It cant be. do you think we still play on the supply orig terms etc ? i need an indication as to best route to tackle/fight this now do you think that the carey argument / Kotecha etc still apply I am still certain they need an agreement in court to get enforcement - but I have been reading (TOO MUCH) and have read somewhere that some DJ's still allow enforcement if no agreement and this 1985 thing as you say muddies the water. I want a clear attack strategy or way forward and im not exactly thinking clearly at moment TW

Hi I made a typo in the last message #117 they reference s9 (not 19) I assume its taken from The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 as thats the only place i have found it. The bank say that as the agreement is pre 1985 they have met their obligation under s78 of the 1974 CCA and do not have to supply an agreement or original terms. They sent a current statement and terms. Im now looking at how i best counter this s9 (no agreement required - pre 1985) ?

how best should we counter this s9 (no agreement required - pre 1985) ? I assume its taken from The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 as thats the only place i have found it If i read it correctly it states that "due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, the creditor or owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement or security instrument or any copy thereof" surely destruction - or sending out archive without microfilming is neglegence and was in the claimants control ? so does this stand ? am i right in thinking they would still need an agreement in court to enforce ?

how best should we counter this s9 (no agreement required - pre 1985) ? I assume its taken from The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 as thats the only place i have found it If i read it correctly it states that "due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, the creditor or owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement or security instrument or any copy thereof" surely destruction - or sending out archive without microfilming is neglegence and was in the claimants control ? so does this stand ? am i right in thinking they would still need an agreement in court to enforce ?

OK will do

We have completed disclosure by list, the claimant has listed various documents generally :- credit card statements from the last 5 years account (up to early 2011) Statements of case common to parties. List of various correspondence to and from myself / claimant over between 2008 and now credit card terms 1992 , then 2007, 2009 computer generated default notice But no mention of copy agreements or reconstituted so at face value - there is nothing new , but how do i know they are not hiding anything, I understand that they can only reference documents disclosed, Do I request everything ? If they don’t have original agreement they can’t enforce according to Carey And if they try reconstituted I go down the Phoenix vs Kotecha They will never be able to produce a copy of the original agreement ; I never signed one ! They can’t go down the reconstituted because they don’t have the necessary information. Also after we submitted our disclosure to claimants solicitors , they sent communication saying that as the agreements is dated 1981 , under s19 of CCA 1974, they do not need to provide a copy of the agreement if its no longer in their clients possession ???? and they go on to state that they have complied with s78 of the 1974 CCA Asking me to forward proposals to settle the account to avoid further litigation. Surely they know they don’t have an enforceable case , I am under the impression that the banks solicitors just running with this to increase their costs, do they get paid from the bank either way – Win or loose ? The Judge was very clear during our last court appearance – he told the solicitors not to refer to a document they have not produced and the DJ instructed the banks solicitor to seek direction from the bank - asking them to ensure they had the necessary documentation before returning to court, What happens now ?