£17.5 billion wiped off the value of banks today, a further bailout of billions, I don't think we are going to have a choice.

Thanks David & Monty, Have read a few threads and amex do seem to play hardball, but they still have to provide the proof no matter how much they jump up and down and scary it becomes. I thought rather than tell them to go forth and ..... until they produce an agreement maybe try changing tact and send them a letter along the lines of the following; Their attempts to dance around a simple direct question should provide interesting reading.

And this released today;

Hi thanks for all your responses, here is a copy of the application, Amex never signed it. The copy is very poor so hopefully you will be able to see. Also in their covering letter they state that this is the agreement. What do you think? http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p392/cagkitchen/amexapplicationcopy.jpg

Oh and we will also see singular global currency in the next few years. That's if we make it past 2012.

A light look at securitization; Young Bob moved to Devon and bought a Donkey from a farmer for £100.00. The farmer agreed to deliver the Donkey the next day. The next day he drove up and said, "Sorry son, but I have some bad news, the donkey died." Bob replied, "Well, then just give me my money back." The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already." Bob said, "Ok, then, just bring me the dead donkey." The farmer asked, "What you going to do with him?" Bob said, "I'm going to raffle him off." The farmer said, "You can't raffle off a dead donkey!" Bob said, "Sure I can. Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he's dead." A month later, the farmer met up with Bob and asked, "What happened with that dead donkey?" Bob said, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two pounds a piece and made a profit of £998.00." The farmer said, "Didn't anyone complain?" Bob said, "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his £2 back." Bob now works for Goldman Sachs.

Hi brw and nuke em And the messiah, ah.. sorry Obama has just said that because of the financial crises he may not be able to live up to his pre election promises. So America moves one step closer to massive civil unrest.

Hi I think RMA have just set a record for a response to a cca request - 9 days they even used special delivery . All that was sent though, was a single sheet copy of the application form with nothing attached. I am trying to sort this out on behalf of my wife, so I will post a copy as soon as I get a chance, but I just wanted to query the following in the meantime, the application dosen't seem to have any prescribed terms, however they have listed their promontial incentives down the side for example there is no APR for repayment but an introductory APR for balance transfers, 56 days interest free credit but no schedule for repayment, and other phrases such as refund protection, 1p back for every £1 spent etc. Can these be seen to make up the prescribed terms?

Just to clarify something about the figure of 8-10% that the bank needs to hold, banks around the world have to adhere to what is known as the Basel II regulations and these are the rules which stipulate how much a bank needs to hold in reserve, this is directly related to the quality of their loan book, the riskier the loans the higher the amount needed to be held in reserve. An initial deposit of £100 yields a loan amount of £90 then £81 and so on. They generate billions out of thin air and pay a pittance interest rate on the initial deposit. An ingenious system built out of pure greed. Now as your bank manager was not just content with perhaps having surplus deposits wanted to maximise leverage, approached AIG who effectively issued an unregulated insurance policy called a credit default swap which opened a way of getting around the Basel II rules. The real returns lay with the high risk sector such as sub prime mortgages and this market had the potetial to dwarf any returns the bank had generated previously. AIG was unregulated so basically it was not required to hold the reserve to cover the policy, it has all gone bang, AIG can't pay any claims and the banks don't have the reserves to meet the Basel II rules. Banks are now in such dire straits that everything is being done to divert our attention from this......

Thank you FD for advice, it is all sorted now.

Thanks doc, He has the equipment, so would it be the estimated recovery cost to replace the equipment as if new or at present value?

Hi This man is on very shaky ground, the debt can only be pursued against you personally if you signed some sort of personal guarantee. Your company is in the hands of the OR! Being a director he knows the rules and should be held account for his despicable actions. I am pretty much in the same boat as you my company failed due to my ill health and as such has no funds to enter into somesort of formal liquidation so is just hanging in limbo waiting to be struck off or wound up. I was persued by creditors some I haven't heard from since they received copies of the companies application for strike off, others accepted token payments as full and final settlement. I would write to the company who instructed this guy and let them know whats happening tell them the company is already in the hands of the OR and they should make their claim for monies to the OR. They need to tell this man to back off otherwise you will persue them for harassment. I would do a search for this mans' name on the disqualified directors list on the OR's website as well as a company search at companies house. His actions are unlawfull and you may find information that you can use. Good luck, I hope this helps.

Hi This is a long story which sounds a bit more confusing than it really is so I apologise for that. Basically my ltd company failed due to my breakdown and ill health and was sold as a "going concern" along with the assets it owned, the assignment of the lease and goodwill, the deal was finally completed in feb this year. However there was outstanding equipment for which the title couldn't pass due to it being under a lease agreement. This was made crystal clear to the purchaser. As the lease agreements had finished their principal term by this time, it was agreed that a portion of the sale proceeds may be held back at time of completion and that he could use the equipment in day to day trading until a settlement could be reached with the leasing companies and thus the title be allowed to pass to the company and then onto the purchaser who would then release the funds. All fine and dandy so far. There were 3 leasing companies, 2 were settled in april and title was passed then. The final company took until october to accept a settlement however they would only pass title to a third party not connected to me or my company in any way. Now the problem has arisen whereby I could have nominated the purchaser as the 3rd party but he decided to make a greedy claim for monies due to him that where not agreed from the balance, so in order to protect the outstanding sum due as per the agreement, I bought the equipment from a nominated third party and am now the legal owner of the equipment. This was done as legal deal completely separate from the company and using my own funds. I had to do it this way because the company has applied to be struck off and as this could happen any day now there would be no chance of it being paid if this dispute takes ages to be resolved. It must be made clear that it was assumed that all the leasing companies would release title directly to me or the company so I was never misleading to the purchaser in any way, the fact that I allowed him to withhold money for his own protection and use the equipment was indication that I was acting in good faith. I even allowed the guy to start work on decorating and getting ready to open once I ceased trading in order that he could be up and running as soon possible. I wasn't able to mentally keep check of things and protect myself and as a result was stitched up paying rent for him because of this. As the company can't legally pass title of this equipment it stands to reason that it shouldn't be paid the balance and because of this I agreed to waive the money due to the company. So the purchaser is under no legal obligation to the company, but can buy the equipment from me which I am more than willing to sell it to him for an amount equal to the balance owed to the company. He gets his equipment, I get the money. I have tried to keep this civil but after my phone conversation with him today it is clear he is getting pretty aggressive and is now refusing to pay for the equipment or hand it back. So I kinda need to know what will be the best way of progressing, I am nervous about speaking to him on the phone now so I will only negotiate further in writing I have been extremely fair in all this trying to talk sense into him so that he can see I am not being deceitful in anyway, but it is only his greed that has put him in this position. I need to protect my equipment from being sold or deliberately damaged because I believe that this could happen out of spite. Sorry this is as brief as I can get without it running into 5 pages . Any help or ideas will be much appreciated, thank you.

Hi FF Glad I was able to help, you may want to offer the smaller creditors a few pounds as full and final settlement for their outstanding debts, I did it as a personal gesture of goodwill and as something completely separate from the ltd co. Just make sure that they know that it is a personal payment on behalf of the company and that you are in no way obligated to do so, I think that it will show you in good light should the company be forcefully wound up. The smaller creditors seemed happy to accept this and I was able to draw a line under those. I am only left with hmce and a gas company. I try to make what ever payments I can afford to them each month even if it is only a couple of pounds. Just bear in mind that if the company has outstanding liabilities to the crown they will as a matter of course object to your application for a strike off, because of the hassle involved to reinstate the company to the registrar in order that they can commence action. However once the application is received at companies house they will automatically keep updating their records every 3-6 months and hmce need to keep objecting to strike off because if they don't your company will be removed next time companies house update their records. This is position my company is in just hanging in limbo. From what I understand of the strike off procedure the company dosen't die as in formal liquidation it only ceases to function, I suppose more like being in a coma, but any creditor can apply to have the company reinstated onto the registrar within 20 years of the date of dissolution. If they want to take action thereby making it live. The thing is its the little creditors who are the ones who hound relentlesly and use the dca's so it might be worth just getting them off your back but only under your terms. You will feel a lot better. In answer to your question, yes you need to send a copy to all creditors even if the company owes them a few pounds, and don't worry about the form it is pretty painless.

Hi FF Sorry to hear about your stresses, hopefully my experiences will help to ease your mind a bit. Basically I am in the same boat as you, ltd co. insolvent and was being chased personally by bailiffs for unpaid NNDR. I was being hassled at home to pay the debt and the council refused to accept a repayment plan proposal which I had put forward, so even though they knew the company could not meet it's liabilities they still refused to negotiate with me personally and were only interested in sending the baliffs, It was at this point that I made sure that there was and always is a signed statutory decleration by my front door. Anyway to cut a long story short as soon as the council received a copy of form 652a the bailiffs sent an email confirming that they were taking no further action against the company or myself, and I have not heard a peep from the council since march. As an application for strike off can only be made once the company has ceased trading for at least 3 months prior to date of application, the council might still hassle you until they receive a copy. It is extremly important that a signed copy of the application for strike off is sent to all the companies creditors within 7 days of being delivered at companies house, this is a legal responsibility of the director/s and faliure to do so could cause you a major headache. It looks like the baliffs have sent a bog standard threat-o-gram, your company is liable to the council not you, the only way you could be liable is if you personally garaunteed the debt or the council proceed to wind up the company and then the OR believes that there was wrongfull trading or supicious circumstances, and states this in their report to the DTI, even then the DTI have to believe that it is in the best interest of the people that you be prosecuted and only by order of the court would you be liable for the companies debt. I don't think even the council will be willing to spend upwards of £1500 and all the hastle to wind you up for a debt of a few hundred pounds on the off chance that they want to try and prove that you might have been doing something dodgy. Even the inland revenue will think twice about having to wind up a non trading company unless they were absolutely positive that the company has assets. If you have a copy of your 652a form send it to them asap otherwise inform them that the company has insufficient funds or assets to enter into formal liquidation and will be making an application to be struck off and then invite them to wind you up. It should help get them off your back. Hope this helps, good luck.

So in theory this argument may have legs, okay maybe we can have a little fun with this and see how far it can be taken. So the facts, while defending a claim against another creditor I find out about my legal right to request a copy of the credit agreement and make this request, supplied a copy of unsigned document with no T & C's, Apr is stated as 0%, account is very old can't remember signing anything (but do remember something about it being interest free for the first 25 years and it can't be varied ). However I am very concerned that I have this all wrong as I have been paying masses of interest and charges over the years, as well as been hounded day and night by telephone. All this while trying to meet repayments and struggling to feed the kids, surely this document can't be correct and I am mistaken. I express my concerns to the creditor, the creditor confirms that this is a true copy of the original and sends an unrequested copy of another cca but this one is different. Now I am very confused express my concerns again to OC only to be told that first document is a "true copy" and that's that. So now very concerned as to why I have been overcharged all these years but I must of been right about the APR because the agreement states this, and this is a true copy. Silly me overpaying all this time but thank god I remembered about the 0% apr deal.

Sorry something dodgy happening with linking to other posts. Tried a couple of times can't seem to get it to work. The thread is found in the legal issues section. Just thinking out loud; so goldfish send me 2 different "cca's" 1 has an Apr of 0% now they claim that this is a true copy, maybe I should issue a claim for all interest applied to this account since 1995. That should get them arguing against the enforceability of their own agreement.

Thanks CM, have they assigned your account? What is worrying me are the points raised in this thread: Cabot County Court Claim Form There have been concerning issues raised regarding their obligations under assignment.

Right, finally mangaged to get their final response scanned. http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p392/cagkitchen/goldfinal1.jpg http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p392/cagkitchen/goldfinal2.jpg If they had the document they would have supplied it, so in order to comply they can generate anything and claim it to be a "true copy". Any comments?

Thanks chancellor, I will post the reply from goldfish as soon as I can get the scanner working.

Thank you all. aBP I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. September must be sale season.

Just a quick query I have read somewhere else that in order to put this to bed I should apply for a judgment in my favour as that will stop them hassling me in the future, a wasted costs order is normally applied for at the same time, is this true and is there any sort of time limit that applies? By the way HC turned up to court without a copy of the agreement so that's 2-0 to me . Here We Go CL Finance/HC round 2

Hi I have just recently had a claim dismissed against me due to the claimant not producing a credit agreement, have a look at my thread there is some valid information there that may be of some use to you especially the defence/arguments supplied by 42man. Here We Go CL Finance/HC round 2 I am sure someone more knowledgeable will be around soon to help. Good luck.

Well the court dismissed their claim. They turned up without the agreement and the Judge wouldn't have it. I feel sorry for the poor guy he mumbled away, as the judge kept asking how they were going to prove this claim. He tried to ask for a stay but the judge told him "you have already had 8 months" The Judge then went on to make a comment about the fact that I have been asking nicely for the agreement all this time and they didn't even have the decency to reply. The whole process took 10 mins. Couldn't believe how nervous I was this morning, even watching a bit of Womans Olympic Beach Volley Ball didn't seem to help . The judge dismissed my attempt to go for costs, anyway many thanks for all your help and support. A special thanks to 42man. As soon as I am well enough to resume work I will most definitely be making a donation. Feel ready to deal with Goldfish/Cabot now.

Thanks Ginnever me too. 42 thank you for that letter, a very useful bit of info indeed.