My one any only dealings with the ICO was a complaint in March and a reply in November! I spoke at length (twice) with the case worker. He was verbally agreeing with me 100% but I have to say the letters did not quite read like that. Now I'll have to complain because the length of time was so long! I'd add that they are supposed to be in charge of the DPA and as said above I don't think they are quite up to it. They do not say 'you will do this' but instead start to request information when the proof on my part showed 'MH' blatantly enter details on CRA files for 'outstanding debt' searches for statute barred debts, so old I did not even know of them! The searches amazingly had run their 2 years the week that the ICO contacted me. The place not mentioned is the 'FLA' Home - Finance & Leasing Association . I got referred there for CitiFinancial disputes by the FSA. CF even broke their own FLA rules and yet as they are fully funded by such companies they did nothing! In fact dealing with them was exactly the same as dealing with CF's complaints department - hopeless. I was even talking to the most senior FLA controller too! Totally shameful! Rant mode now switched 'off'. Michael

My apologies here - especially to 'Basil Fawlty' I seem to have taken over/hijacked the thread here. Is there a possibility that a moderator could move all my bits to a new thread of my own? Apologies again! Michael

Thank you for this - blimey such good readin on so many threads! Michael

Well thank you (again) sincerely for this. I shall wait it out. My own view is that they want to wear me down - years ago it would have worked but now I must be getting too cynical because I don't believe much of the jargon churned out. Are you suggesting I send a CCA request too or just wait? I think I've already annoyed them! LOL Michael

Yes, solicitor letter was the last from them. Events: DN Final Demand 2 x in house DCA letters 1 x in house Solicitor letter. Michael

I'd better show you the CRA reply (as in from the client), all of a two liner ignoring the DN issue as invalid; Response (Administrator)04/12/2009 03.30 PM The repayment was required by 14/8, this was not met and final demand followed dated 9/9. Bank have acted in line with their procedures in this regard and the debt remains outstanding ................. I do not dispute the debt but the DN as I consider it whlly invalid - hence my comment earlier regarding 'Catch 22'! The CRA's data controller (in my view) ignored my comments that the DN was invalid which therefore makes him/her associated with the entry. CRA's seem to hide behind the 'Our client MUST make decisions and it's out of our hands'. Michael Now we have the (again in house) solicitor letter: ................................... Pre-Sue Unit 24 November 2009 Dear Mr X, RE: Your Account with XXXXX Bank Pic Account Number xxxx/xxxxxxxx Outstanding Balance £00,000.00 We act for XXXXX Bank Pic of (address) ("the Bank" ) . We refer to the Bank's correspondence with you demanding repayment of this debt. We are advised that despite the demand full repayment has not been made . We have therefore been instructed to take legal action again st you in the County Court to recover this debt. This may result in the Bank obtaining a judgment against you which may affect your abi lity to obtain credit. To avoid legal action, you must pay the amount outstanding with in fourteen days from the date of this letter . If you need more time to pay, we may be able to arrange th is. Please telephone th is office immediately on FREEPHONE (number). Payment can be made by credit card or debit card over the telephone, or your payment can be sent to this office . Please quote your name and account number with your payment . You can also pay cash at any UK Post Office or PayPoint outiet using a payment card administered by Girobank. Please contact us for further detai Is. Free independent advice and assistance can be obtained from National Debtline (Freephone 0808 808 4000); Consumer Credit Counselling Service (Freephone 0800 138 1111); Citizens Advice (the address and telephone number is available via your local Yellow Pages or Thomson local directory, or from their website -www.citizensadvice.org .uk); or Community Legal Advice (0845 345 4345). It is important that you immediately contact us. Yours faithfuIIy, ........................... It's again amusing that the 'Dear Mr.' should in fact never end with 'Yours faithfully' but there again English grammar in recent years has nose dived! There's the CC (not many people have that level of credit) payment option - surprising. Any paypoint location would 'drool' at that amount of cash! LOL Don't you love the 'pre-sue' bit?! I'm sure many have detected which bank this is by now. Further comments? Michael (p.s. I'll show the actual DN notice and final demand (abridged of course) in my next post. The Default Notce (bits of course removed); ................................. Default Notice served under Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 IMPORTANT -YOU SHOULD READ THIS CAREFULLY This notice refers to a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 under Account No. XXXXXXXX DETAILS OF DEFAULT: Term breached: The term or terms of the agreement form requiring you to make payments. Nature of breach: Failure to make payments as required Mnder the agreement. ACTION REQU]RED On or before 14 August 2009 you are required to take the following action to remedy this breach: to pay arrears of £0,000.00 IF THE ACTION REQUlRED BY THIS NOTICE IS TAKEN BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN NO FURTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTION WILL BE TAKEN IN RESPECT OF THE BREACH. IF YOU DO NOT TAKE THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN THEN THE FURTHER ACTION SET OUT BELOW MAY BE TAKEN AGAINST YOu. FURTHER ACTION Recovery of all moneys outstanding under this loan Agreement. Continued (Bank phone number, address and website) BANK Amount owing, including interest and charges up to 3 August 2009 . £00,000.00 Less rebate due to you £0,000.00 Total amount to be repaid as at the above date £00,000.00 N.B. These figures are calculated on the assumption that the borrowing is repaid by the date specified above and that there are no further transactions on your account after today's date. The amount to be repaid will be revised ifthere are any further transactions, or if payment in full of the amount is not made by the specified date. This notice should include a copy of the current Office ofFair Trading Information Sheet on default. This contains important information about your rights and where to go for support and advice. Ifit is not included, you should contact us to get one. IF YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY IN PAYfNG ANY SUM OWING UNDER THE AGREEMENT OR TAKING ANY OTHER ACTION REQUIRED BY TillS NOTICE, YOU CAN APPLY TO THE COURT WIllCH MAY MAKE AN ORDER ALLOWING YOU OR ANY SURETY MORE TIME. IF YOU ARE NOT SURE WHAT TO DO, YOU SHOULD GET HELP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU SHOULD CONTACT A SOLICITOR, YOUR LOCAL TRADING STANDARDS DEPARTMENT, OR YOUR NEAREST CITIZENS' ADVICE BUREAU Manager 4 August 2009 Date of Signature ..................................... Spot the dates! Nothing uch mire to say but after the final demand the amount is wholly different. Michael The Final Demand (with certain bits removed of course); ................................................. Reference: XXXXX XXXXXX 9 September 2009 Dear Mr X FINAL DEMAND NAMES OF DEBTOR: Mr X. X Despite our previous communication concerning your debt, we have to date received no satisfactory response. We now DEMAND immediate repayment of £00,000.00 (amount in characters). Interest will be added on the same basis as presently applies. YOU HAVE EIGHTEEN DAYS TO REPAY IN FULL or let us have satisfactory proposals for repayment by instalments or otherwise. If immediate repayment in full cannot be made, the attached Statement ofMeans form must be completed and returned. ACTION may be taken against you through DEBT COLLECTORS or SOLICITORS if you fail to comply with this demand within 18 days You may also be taken to COURT. Continued (Bank details and phone number) (Bank ID) Mr X 9 September 2009 As a DEFAULTING DEBTOR, details of your default including your name and address will be given to the CREDIT REFERENCE AGENCIES named below if we do not receive a satisfactory response from you. Credit Reference Agencies supply information to lenders in order to establish people's credit histories quickly and simply. Lenders then use this information to help decide whether or not to accept applications for credit from customers. If details ofyour default are given to Credit Reference Agencies, this may make it more difficult for you to obtain credit elsewhere in future. Yours sincerely (name) Senior Manager Collections Enc. Experian Ltd, PO Box 8000, Nottingham, NG80 7WF. Equifax PLC, Credit File Advice Centre, PO Box 1140, Bradford, BD1 SUS. Callcredit, Consumer Services Team, PO Box 491, Leeds, LS3 1 WZ. ....................................... Funny as I did not see any 'enclosures' but I'll again put it down to bad grammar. Well you now have the full picture remembering the dates and a bit of 'dodgy' data from the DN. I hope the banks 'people/spies' look at this and consider I was always open and helpful (and still unemployed) they might see a different sie of life - I doubt it. Some help and suggestions would be so welcome. Michael

Thank you again!! The Default is shown on both Experian and Equifax. Nothing further has happened in regards to a CCJ and I have that notion that it's a 'catch 22' situation. The DN on the CRA files is as bad as a CCJ. They have ignored my CRA request regarding an invalid DN and the CRA itself will not remove the entry. This is so typical that they do the 'roughshod' route it seems. There's a 2nd (again in house) DCA letter; ................................................... 3rd November 2009 FINAL DEXAND Dear Mr X, Your account With: X Bank pIc Account Number: xxxxxx/xxxxxxxx Outstanding balance: £00,000.00 You have failed to make payment as requested and we therefore now have no alternative but to take further action against you. This may involve: Debt Collectors who may call at your door, or XX Solicitors issuing legal proceedings which may result in: - a County Court Judgment being registered against you; - a County Court Bailiff visiting your home and taking goods; - an Attachment of Earnings order which may result in your current or future employer being ordered to deduct payments from your salary. If legal action is taken, it will result in legal fees and costs of £493.00 being added to your outstanding balance. You can prevent this by paying the full outstanding balance within the next 24 hours using the Bank Giro Credit Slip below. Alternatively, call us and pay with a debit or credit card over the telephone. You can also make payments securely on line at (website) by debit or credit card. An opportunity to pay by instalments may still be available to you but you must call us immediately to discuss this further on FREEPHONE 0500 xxxxxx. Yours sincerely ....................................... Quite amusing that they are suggesting a credit card - made me smile. This is a loan account by the way. I left the 'fee' amount showing. Should I be doing a S.A.R rather than a cca? Comments? Michael

Thank you too 'Teaboy' - Erm, that was the the banks Final Demand. Does this mean that the next letter from their 'in-house' DCA mean that termination is effective? This is the first (in house) DCA 1st letter after that though; .................................. 26th October 2009 URGENT COMMUNICATION DO NOT IGNORE Your account with: XXXXXX Bank pIc Account Number: XXX Outstanding balance: £00.000,00 We are disappointed to note that we have been unable to come to an arrangement to clear the outstanding balance on your account. You must telephone us immediately on FREEPHONE (number) to confirm when full repayment will be made. If you do not contact us we intend to instruct (XX) Solicitors to issue legal proceedings and apply to issue a Warrant of Execution. We should explain that a Warrant of Execution gives the Court Bailiff authority to take goods which belong to you from your home and sell them. The amount that the goods fetch is paid towards your debt. Additional fees and costs will be added to your balance should this course of actionprove necessary. Our offices are open between the hours and 8:00am and 4:00pm Saturday. of 8:00am and 9:00pm Monday to Friday You can prevent this action if you contact us now on FREEPHONE (number). Yours sincerely,　 ....................................................... I have to say 'Warrant' seems a bit presumptious to say the least. Comments welcome? Michael

I believe that ATM's if I read correctly recently WILL be adding a fee for ALL cash withdrawls. Hmm, that'll be applicable to those in credit too, you know those who said we should never make mistakes and go overdrawn. LOL I think that the concept of ATM's versus say D/D's and S/O's is that it's a 'cash check decision'. Therefore no funds just returns a 'no' and your card comes back or gets swallowed. With other items it requires (albeit automated) it means the bank must inform the D/D caller that the request was refused giving them chance to reapply/and or contact you (probably with their own fine) for instructions. It's worth checking though because even Cash/Card Accounts that have D/D's or S/O's called against them that fail around 6 times means they will close the account. Personally when I had money I also had so many D/D's and when the cash ran out my nightmare began. It might be a good time to have a check of all the Cash/Card Accounts available because there are large variances on charges if you slip up. Michael

Thank you for that!! I'm still a little confused because nothing mentioning '76/98' is printed on anything after the DN was received. I've copied the 'Final Demand' below. Does that constitute 'Termination'? I received 2 x DCA letters and a solicitor letter after. ................... 9th September 2009 Dear Mr X. X FINAL DEMAND NAMES OF DEBTOR: Mr X. X Despite our previous communication concerning your debt, we have to date received no satisfactory response. We now DEMAND immediate repayment of £00,0000.00 (-full amount entered in words -). Interest will be added on the same basis as presently applies. YOU HAVE EIGHTEEN DAYS TO REPAY IN FULL or let us have satisfactory proposals for repayment by instalments or otherwise. If immediate repayment in full cannot be made, the attached Statement of Means form must be completed and returned. ACTION may be taken against you through DEBT COLLECTORS SOLICITORS if you fail to comply with this demand within 18 days. You may also be taken to COURT. As a DEFAULTING DEBTOR, details of your default including your name and address will be given to the CREDIT REFERENCE AGENCIES named below if we do not receive a satisfactory response from you. Credit Reference Agencies supply information to lenders in order to establish people's credit histories quickly and simply. Lenders then use this information to help decide whether or not to accept applications for credit from customers. If details of your default are given to Credit Reference Agencies, this may make it more difficult for you to obtain credit elsewhere in future. Yours sincerely ................................... Thanks in advance as any help would be most valuable to me. Michael

Could someone verify to me what 'terminate' actually means? In my case I have had (I believe) an invalid DN followed by a 'Final Demand'. There followed 2 x DCA letters followed by a solicitor letter. The strange thing is that the DN/FD had one figure on it and the DCA/Legal a different (lower) one. Thanks Michael

Well I am I suppose lucky because I have a 12 month contract. You know, new phone each year! In fact last year they gave me 2 new phones! The year ends in february but as I accepted a new phone early it means 15 months to the end of the contract. Sadly 'arm twisting' no longer seems to work and to them I'm a drop in the ocean. Michael

I guess you are right - just never let it happen again. Regarding negotiation, I was thinking 13 years as a customer, paying always on time and ahem that in the last 3 years I lost out on over 9000 free minutes! Apart from that nothing. LOL Thanks anyhow Michael

Just maybe a bit tounge in cheek/wishful post here but maybe someone might suggest somesthing? Okay, had a contract with Orange since 1996. Okay, I know it does not matter be it 1 hour or 10 years as you are treated the same. Thought I'd just check my latest bill to be DD'ed in 2 weeks and almost fainted. I have a contract that allows 500 minutes anynetwork a month. I have in the last 2 years used maybe 200 minutes a months and the very occasional 400. Of course these days unused minutes no longer get carried over. So seeing as I went 235 minutes over my allowance I was stunned to see around £80 added to my bill. I found these minutes are charged at 35p pm. This was a pure (and it seems a scary) error on my part! I called their customer services and they said there was no way this could be reduced. I sent an email to the call of 'we do not deal with this type of question by e-mail' and kindly put me through to a man who basically confirmed what was previously said. I have to say that both customer service people I spoke to were very pleasant and friendly but could not do anything. So am I doomed with this (I really cannot afford) extra on my bill or is there a slim possibility of negotiation? Any help would be welcome. Michael

Hmm, I'm none too sure about #1. I'd have pre booked the hotel and probably pre paid too to get a discount. Oh, my days staying in hotels have now gone! LOL Phew £750 a night, I was more thinking £75. #2 is an informed 'choice' is it not? I would either 'shop around' for my 'single' purchase and if needed to, looked elsewhere and made a valued decision. #3 is vastly different in every respect is it not? We are not entering into a single night at a hotel, a one off purchase but instead a service long term. We must at some time have to re-negotiate or occasionally be able to have exclusions or agreements from them. Good job we all have different perpectives on things I guess! Michael

'Pinky69' Okay DCA's - of the main two I'd say Experian were the more understanding. Equifax are like 'it's not our problem and 100% up t our clients what they do' attitude. However CRA's also have data controllers who are supposed to oversee that their systems are being used lawfully and not in an adhoc fashion(as in searches on another thread of my own). If we go to say my own situation. On one hand we have HSBC entering an invalid DN and on the other 'Clarity' entering 3 searches, all of which are statute barred. HSBC replies to totally ignore my invalid DN entry and Clarity says the searches are valid (which they are 100% not!) totally ignoring my request for removal. The whole singular problem with everything is time. We have all these companies entering what often is invalid data in a second. We have people like you and me saying they should be removed. Then we have CRA's hiding behind some invisible shield trying to distance themselves when they themselves should act. You complain to the CRA only to find they say 'contact their client'. That's well and good but all this time that data is available and often entered without correct authority. Your choices are all the govental quango's and County Court. These (I will call them) 'characters' in the meantime ignore you in the belief you'll do nothing because so often you cannot afford the court fees. They treat you as some kind of alien being and some newly appointed recently left uni junior sends you 'silly' replies. So what do you do? The court action can take many months, waiting for you to have done the 'right' thing when in fact you know the answers before they all take their 14/21/28/40 days to reply. The frustration is annoying and all the time these companies think they are wearing you down and you'll go no further. Michael

'kennyh' - hehe I thought someone would say what you said. Well they charge me (or used to) £25 for the honour of the letters 'DR' by the £4 and I called then. They removed the £25 charge - Okay once only but they did it. Now if set in stone they'd never do that. The fact that pre 2007 they refunded bank charges forgetting the words 'goodwill' (that word used a bit too often for nothing) means they relented on strict T&C's does it not? So it goes on. I'm sure in certain current accounts probably in the 'private' area they have many T&C's adjusted too. Michael

Well this is the 'catch 22' thing is it not? The DN and final demand is issued. The bank decides that they'll ignore the DN being invalid and enter it into the CRA system. They know that if they go to court for a CCJ then there's a good chance (for me anyhow) that the DN will be deemed invalid and therefore will be removed from the CRA files and the CCJ application fail. I am aware that the debt does not vanish but the words 'DN' and the red circle does. My other option is for me to go to CC and claim the DN invalid. This is indeed a good option, as they ignored me telling them and of course they cannot rectify their mistakes now. Strange I also no longer get any phone calls either! Michael

Is not the DN and Final Demand not that then? Michael

My view is that say for example you miss a ayment for a loan or something else you might have a charge of £5 added. I think no one can say that to have a charge for example £30 for an error of a £1 is expected. The fact say, even though in an agreement that Barclays can charge £22 per day for using any of the £250 'reserve' for 5 days acceptable. It's all a matter yes, of fairness and negotiated understanding. When you sign T&C's you are really signing an agreement where theose terms are the basis of contract. They are possibly negotiable and not set in stone. However as said many times, financial institutions like to believe they are in full control and those T&C's are they simple way of deciding conflicts. Maybe we are now of an age of automation where systems are (faceless) programmed to 'charge' and humans inputted those bits of data initially. However unlike other industries these same companies decided automation was a key to making more profit without human intervention. Michael

I'm sorry I think you might have missed my point. If I can reply to your post... I'm not in fact afraid of them. My belief is that they need not go to court to ensure the DN remains on the CRA files. If they go to court I will challenge the DN and if I win the DN entries will be removed from the CRA's. I did and incme and expenditure with them back in May. The lady agreed there was no available funds to service the loan. She even told me that they would not call the D/D payment (which they lied and did!). Once the DN and final demand arrived they effectively stopped further interest by virtue of themselves. The figure shown was the one to the date of the DN. Getting a CCJ is not what I intend to do if at all possible and as I said myself the DN (wrong) entry on the CRA's is of equal derogatary status. Of course I could have gone to court to delay the DN but in fact without a timeline that would have been pointless. However the fact they have ignored my views regarding their DN kind of answers it's own question. I did live within my means untill I was made redundant. The fact is that financial institutions could not care once payments stop. Their phone and letter system goes into overdrive and they will smply not listen. I think we are looking at the same problem with different beliefs and prospectives. Life is a course of events and with the best planning in the world unless you never borrow anything then anyone can end up in the same situation. Michael

BUT you might to include the reasoning regarding NOT telling people that 'free' is not in fact free at all? So ALL people signing up for current accounts were in fact duped into believing something that was a little economical with the truth. This also goes down the track that 'fees' whilst disclosed never adds the words 'you will be called often and pressured no matter what your situation is into paying'. That's like saying 'we give away money for free' and not quite telling them how they manage to do it. 'the-shadow' love your comment - "Free whilst your in Credit and someone else is in Debt picking up your tab". I wonder what all those brilliant people who never have problems would say to that?! Michael

'tifo', well said! Now that nicely brings us onto the subject of is a current account 'free' or not. The answer (also not in the T&C's) is that some will not incur any fees because the ones who have default sums charged to them will pay for you! The term 'free' therefore, either written or verbally stated is wholly untrue - seriously. There's nothing free because it all requires a cost to operate. Then of course you hear banded around various 'billions' taken for default charges but in fact we need to decide if these amounts are the actual fees received or those disclosed. A small grey area that no doubt comes under the commercial secret umbrella. In the end 'money IS the root of all evil' as the saying goes. LOL Michael

Thank you for this however in my case it's simply because I am unemployed. The thing that 'got' to me was the fact they knew this and we did back in May an income & expenditure calculation. However since that no matter what ever I said the answer would be 'So how much are you going to pay us today sir?'. When the DN finally arrived it had to start with the wrong dates on it - like 4th and due by 14th. I pointed this out to them after the final demand arrived but they chose to totally ignore both the written letter and verbal communication with swiftly appointed (in house) DCA. Rather than to reply in any way I then find that the DN's are entered on two CRA's. If their actions were different I would have taken the nice approach. However it was never relenting and the fact due to no fault of my own (or theirs) I was made redundant. If I'd gotten another job fast which I've come to learn is a bit wishful then none of this would have happened. That's why I'm asking for guidance. I mean they could well do the 'catch 22' affair and never progress to a CCJ seeing as the CRA entries with a DN are just equally as bad. In fact what's to stop them doing this as when I did on line queries with both CRA's the bank came back with a simple 2 liner; 'The repayment was required by 14/8, this was not met and final demand followed dated 9/9. Bank have acted in line with their procedures in this regard and the debt remains outstanding.' Michael

Can I ask regarding invalid DN's ... I receive a default notice dated 4th. It states that it must be paid by the 14th of that same month (as in 10 days)! To claim this is invalid would I need much more to add? Michael