Yes Guido, both Bandit127 and myself I understand that you have a copy of the agreement, but as you haven't said otherwise, you've probably had it in your possession for some time, maybe it's the original copy you received at the time of signing. The question that was asked was "how long since the bank provided you with a copy?" Although you have your copy they may not have theirs, so if your paperwork was to be accidently shredded today and you needed to ask the bank for a copy of the signed agreement would they have the signed original in order to be able to provide such a copy? I'll leave it at that. Rob

How recently have you asked for and been provided with a copy of the guarantor agreement? It's just possible that if this was a while ago then they may not have one at present, bearing in mind that some of the banks have been particularly inept at retaining documentation in the past. Sorry for sounding repetitive, just trying to help. Rob

I think that was meant as a rhetorical (not sure if that's the right word) question/suggestion. i.e. have the bank still got a copy of the guarantee agreement should they need to enforce it? Only one way to find out ..... Rob

Many of us are aware of DCAs using multiple numbers to try and get through to us on the phone, but I've just discovered that Muck Hall must be getting desperate to reach me considering they've been trying unsuccessfully for some time! I don't know if anybody else has had this happen to them, but they've called me today (unsuccessfully again unfortunately for them) using a number on my own area code. Most of the attempts to reach me have been to one of my VoIP numbers, but my router has the facility to block ranges of numbers so I took advantage of that several months ago just after I'd googled their numbers! However, about half an hour ago I noticed there was a missed call from a local number. Normally I would just ring back and enquire but as the 'local' part of the number (second numeral) didn't fit the normal format I decided to be slightly more cautious. Googling didn't produce any results so I decided to call it (but withholding my number by prefixing '141'). Lo and behold a scottish voice announced "Muck Hall"! It's not a coincidence that one of their numbers just happens to be the same as my area code (in Cornwall) but rather a deliberate attempt to fool me into answering a call which displays as local, so watch out for that little trick CAGgers! Oh well, just going off to block another number range in my router. Rob

Probably not much help, but I read a post from another CAG member earlier today who had also fallen foul of a personal guarantee. When he checked his guarantor agreement he saw a clause which limited his liability to less than what he had already paid out! Here's the thread; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?366603-HSBC-debt-sold-to-Robinson-Way(3-Viewing)-nbsp Rob

Until they terminate it is possible for them to re-issue a valid DN, that's why you don't want to alert them to the defective one. Once they can be shown to have terminated the agreement then basically they have shot themselves in the foot. Rob

Recording timer set! Rob

It's probably advisable NOT to alert them about the defective DN at this stage. Rob

If you used a 'signed for' postal service then you can just look up your tracking number on the Royal Mail site and check the date. Rob

I'm not sure what the situation is with an AoE order which has already been granted and then you become unemployed, but in my case of an AoE order being applied for against me, the Judge, upon me stating in court that I was receiving JSA, immediately said he would not be granting an AoE order. So, further to what Cerberus has said above, it may be the case that the original AoE could be set aside. That's just my opinion and no doubt more knowledgeable members will comment Rob

NatWest have admitted in writing that customer(s) signature(s) have been forged by their staff, so best not to put temptation in a dodgy creditors way by providing a signature. Although that might not be quite the same as 'photoshop' copy/pasting of a signature, it's best not to assist any possible attempt by giving them your signature so they have something to base their potential 'artwork' on. Better safe than sorry. Rob

Well this might be worth investigating. It might not get your money back but it might open a can of worms for him and/or his partner if either of them is up to no good regarding unlawfully claiming benefits or similar. You might need to be able to prove he is living there though ... Rob

Let's hope it made an impression on him! I'll get my coat ... Rob

Have you still got the original Default Notice issued by HSBC? I had an HSBC credit card upon which they issued a DN to me on 19th Dec 2006 but which was defective due to not allowing the requisite 14 clear days (AFAIR that was the very day that the change from 7 days to 14 days became effective), thereby shooting themselves in the foot. I wouldn't mind betting yours was also defective, which if it was, and you didn't remedy the default situation at the time, would preclude HSBC from successful court action. This could give you some extra leverage Rob

Was that supposed to be 'prat' or 'pirate' ? Although either would be suitable Rob

Or you could not pay ... I don't think I would ... in fact I know I wouldn't! Congratulations anyway Molly, at least they should be off your back now. Rob

I'm not really sure how they'd react to that, but I suspect not favourably. I'm not sure if you've posted your overdraft limit or present balance in this thread without going back over it, but to give you some idea, my O/D limit was allegedly £5500 but this was exceeded by the bank charging me 4 x £38 charges on 1 day which I refused to accept. They refused to refund these charges so I stopped funding the account. They let the alleged balance rise to about £6400 or so by continuing to add charges/interest for about 3-4 months (I can't remember exactly how long) before they sent me a sort of DN (can't remember proper name), followed by a final demand. I then tried to come to a payment arrangement over the phone and made them fully aware that I had no income other than JSA, but the minimum they would accept at that time was £36 per month. I asked about freezing interest and charges and was put on to a supervisor who would only agree to that if the payments were increased to £40 per month, which I reluctantly agreed to. As previously stated it turned out that they had continued to add interest all the time I was making the agreed payments (which after one of the 6-monthly reviews I agreed to increase to £50 per month). This was a severe strain on my finances but I didn't miss any payments, but it made no difference in the end. I guess I was mugged in a way but their greed got the better of them as the end result showed. It even turned out that they were adding interest after they had discontinued because they handed the account to RobbingScum Way to chase and the amount had increased still further. I guess your position all depends on whether you want to bait them into issuing a claim with the hope of beating it or whether you want to appease them. In my case I didn't really have any option other than to defend a claim. Rob

Be wary of what NW say and what they actually do regarding freezing of any charges or fees, especially interest, unless you get everything in writing. I made the mistake of getting them to agree to stop all charges and interest over the phone, only to discover about 2 years down the line that they had continued to secretly add interest. It looks like unlike me, you're going the right way about things and dealing with them by letter! Rob Rob

I understand, I guess I was conveniently forgetting all that stuff I had jumped ahead forgetting that my account had gone through the various stages of upsetting NWs collections dept. before I finally refused to increase my payments which then brought on the threatened litigation. However, I guess the longer pj2 keeps to an acceptable payment plan, the longer it will be before litigation starts. What an acceptable level of payments will be remains to be seen. Rob

Hi Ford Sorry if I'm being a bit slow, but I guess that was an answer to my post #35 ? If so, I wasn't suggesting BCOBS may have changed the procedure of how the bank would reach the point of issuing a claim, but rather they might think harder about their responsibilities towards the customer regarding fair treatment over charges etc. that may be contained within the alleged balance. Rob

Things have probably changed since my case started because of BCOBS (which I'm not fully conversant with), but IME the account/overdraft is more likely to attract quicker litigation if nothing is being paid in. I guess that's fairly obvious, but NW started their case against me because I wouldn't (couldn't) increase my payments at their review time. Rob

Thinking about it though, IMO RBS/NW would have a weak argument if they used that as it would be perfectly feasible to have a debit card (or cheque guarantee card) for an account without any bearing on an overdraft facility. Rob

No I don't recall reading your case, I was thinking more of the prospect of forgery. I hadn't thought of the tacit agreement to the overdraft angle, although I am aware that there have been cases in the past of Judges saying that the signed card is evidence of a credit card agreement having been made. However, I'm now glad I never returned my card cut in two as requested by NW when the sh1t hit the fan. Rob

If you do decide to return the card make sure you scratch the signature strip off first - we wouldn't want NW getting any ideas would we? Rob

Hi junior232 Further to what Bazooka Boo has said above, this thread might make interesting reading; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?291299-Durkin-v-HFC.-Anyone-tried-it&highlight=durkin Good luck Rob