Hi all, Minor update: Had letter in response to Date Subject Request, (sent another and as last as a long time ago). They will do it but wont provide detail of any calls unless we provide the details of when and who we spoke to!! So we have to do the work for them as well What is interesting to note is they are now saying the debt was sold to Link Financial 10th February. Seven days earlier than Link claim. Just out of interest, when the debt is sold should we not have had notification from GE Money first that the debt was sold. Not to be told by the DCA that they had bought the debt, otherwise they could be just fishing? Also I seem to remember reading 'somewhere' that when a debt is sold, the original creditor sends a sort of summary or breakdown of the debt, what it is comprised of etc. (I.e. not a default notice but a sort of handing over to someone else sort of thing and these are the elements of what is owed)? Cheers,

Hiya postggj, Funny you should say that ;-) Part of the note to FLA: "Even though GE Money are part of your trade association and therefore effectively pay you to investigate them, (no conflict of interest there is there). I hope that you will investigate this matter properly....." Chances of that are similar to fog being plaited on economical basis in Sahara. Cheers,

Hi all, Had note from 'missing Link' when I got home. "..... We currently await hearing from GE Money as to whether or not the account is in dispute and as to whether or not they will be recalling the account....." Was quite surprised there was a free phone number to call if we had any questions! Thought they might be on 50p a minute type line! Yesterday also raised a fresh complaint with Finance and Leasing Association, (just stir things up) that their trade association member has put a disputed account out to a DCA. Cheers,

Hi beachcomber60, I have read through this thread with great interest, getting one over ‘missing Link’. But I have to say getting near the end I was saddened to hear of your (non Link/GE) family times and loss. I do hope that 2011 improves sooner than Dec 31st. The financial side seems like a famous sci-fi trilogy. You are about to enter the ‘Return of the Jedi’ stage and see off the evil empire and its minions for the second and final time. I have had to collect my jaw from the floor when I read that GE are coming round for a second pass. I really do wonder if because they are basically an American firm, they think they can just ignore what they see as quaint parochial laws. Either way LAWS they are and they have to abide by them or they can offf. I wish you the best and speediest of luck in getting this resolved. Cheers,

Afternoon everyone, Looks the fun is about to start. Had a postcard in the post saying "Please call urgently on 0844 7368413" and it was from 'Link Financial Outsourcing Limited', (as in delivered by Royalmail not hand delivered). What seems bit odd is the letter we had from Link at beginning of March was from 'Link Financial Limited'. They are presumably two separate companies and therefore two separate legal entities? If the debt is going to change hands wouldn't it need to be assigned again as well? Either way I have told them both I will not phone them, only write or email. Also I have told them; GE Money themselves have said nothing about the assignment of the debt so just because they say they own the debt is no proof that they actually do! Most importantly have told them to return the debt to GE Money as the account is in dispute. I suppose we wait for the phone call next . Cheers,

Hello all, Update as not a great deal has been happening with this one. The Finance and Leasing Association proved to be a waste of time – what we expected. They felt their member had acted within the law. But interestingly, no answer to our question about the breach of the contract, by their member. Nor any comment about their member’s appalling customer service, (Post #24). We then wrote to the “GE Money Dispute Resolutions” and they were very similar to a Teapot made of chocolate. Basically they said the situation is deadlocked our procedures are exhausted; bring this up with the F.L.A. (DOH done that already). Our last letter to the Dispute team was the ‘final’ letter before we go to arbitration if they can't be bothered to answer us properly. The FLA did suggest we use IDRS (Independent Dispute Resolution Service?). What is a bit weird is we replied to GE Money’s letter dated 18th February. Yet on the 17th February GE Money apparently sold the debt to Link Financial. The reason we know that is on 3rd March we had a letter from Link saying the debt had been assigned to them. So far we sent back a ‘Oh no you don’t, Account is Dispute’ letter, plus wrote back to GE Money saying they are devious as they knew full well there was a dispute and we intended to go to arbitration And to write to us a day after the debt was sold and no even mention it! I think the post might become a bit more frequent in the next few weeks. Cheers,

Thanks for reply cerberusalert Most interesting, before I read the lengthy post! No annual interest rate note received. Much to ponder. I'll no doubt post soon. . . Cheers

Hi, Thanks to Ford for the last post and sorry for taking so long in replying About time for an update. It went fairly quiet about this matter. A couple of letters went to and fro to the Bank. I even put an ultimatum in saying if they so not bother to reply in 28 days I would assume the matter is closed and the account will be seen as settled. They didn't reply. I was sort of hoping they might go to court so could test the Unfair contract route. Then. 25th Feb when we were away. Had letter from Phoenix Credit Services Limited; "We have been instructed by the Co-operative Bank to collect the full balance outstanding against the account......." Did two things 1) Took the unusual step of ringing the number on the letter. They agreed to sent a letter for a new settlement (?) (I also got ready a, this account is in dispute - send it back to the original creditors letter). 2) Wrote to contact at Customer Feedback saying we had received a letter from their pretend debt collectors. Reiterated that if they want to go to court, they must be prepared to face the wroth of the Judges due to wasting the courts time over a matter that could be resolved without action. Plus they will have to answer the question I have been waiting 4 years to have an answer to. This Saturday (5th March) then had a 'Special Offer' from the Bank. It almost brought a tear to my eye, perhaps after all the Bank could be called ethical "Your account has been selected to receive a 50% discount off the balance outstanding, if you pay within 10 days from the date of this letter........." So practically we have till Friday to either agree or disagree with the offer. My gut says settle and my head says let them whistle. Cheers

Hi all, Minor update, the Bank have replied via Secure Message for accepting their termination: Hello Oscar, Thank you for your recent message the contents of which have been noted. I can confirm for you that your letter has been received and has been forwarded to our customer feedback department who will be in contact in due course. Regards smile Cheers,

Hi and thanks Ford for input, Certainly parts of the country are having trouble getting mail, but not here. But even if their legal team decide that so long as the Default Notice was posted and it doesn't matter if it was delivered or not, (as was their first response). The date posted and expiry on the DN have 16 days between inclusive. Deduct the first weekend 20st & 21st Nov. Then knocking off the UKMail 2-day definite service, which is the best option they do, (but not sure if this is the service used) we are left with 12 days at the absolute best. The Bank issued the Termination 6th December; this is before the "14 days have elapsed". It was on an earlier post, but here it it: http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y369/carlyve/smile/ScanImage111_ALT.jpg Plus for 'completeness', the Termination: http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y369/carlyve/smile/ScanImage121_ALT.jpg Hope they are legible enough? Cheers,

Hello all, I think this thread is virtually finished . We rejected the Financial Ombudsman Service decision, but prior to our rejection, (deadline 9th December) Smile sent a Default Notice and Termination. We did raise a couple of queries with the FOS about their decision as they seemed very woolly in their thinking. Their reply received today: "... Due to the nature of the final decision process, we are unable to enter into further communication regarding the merits of this complaint". In other words if you don't like it - tough. Anyway the fun and games if the Default Notice and Termination can be found here. I split this as it has evolved into something else http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?286180-Default-Notice-and-bad-weather-excuse As for claiming unlawful charges goes it seems like the goalposts have moved and depending what smile do now will depend on what happens next. At least I've got some of the charges in an overdraft so they will have to come get it and that is after unlawful rescission! As an aside from charges I will be writing to my MP regarding the FOS. Not so much about our claim, as it seems there is little you can do - they appear to be a law to themselves. More to see if his weight can be added to start reviewing FOS and lack of transparency, poor service, and so on. I started our complaint with the Bank in Nov 2007 and after 37 months and FOS involvement I have not had an answer to my very simple question, (which goes even further back)! Many thanks... ... so far

Hi all, Acceptance of their unlawful rescission has been sent today. A copy has gone via their secure message system and a actual letter will be going very shortly recorded delivery. The ball is back in their court for the moment: dear sirs Re XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX I refer to your letter of dd/mm/yyyy and note that you have unlawfully rescinded the agreement referred to above. I accept that the agreement is at and end and I am now relieved of any and all obligations that the alleged agreement may have held me to Kindly inform me of the genuine arrears outstanding as at the date of termination (not including any unlawful charges or interest added to the account) yours sincerely cyclingoscar Kindly Cheers,

Thanks for that Ford, The argument about the actually delivery will go down to their word verses mine. I don't have "absolute" proof of delivery but we know that it arrived 4th December so "subject to proof to the contrary" may apply. Luckily ignoring this, the Co-op have sent the DN via a third party mail carrier with their equivalent of second class. They have not allowed for 14 clear days upon theoretical delivery and to cap that, then sent the Termination before these 14 days elapsed. So we are going to accept their 2offer". Cheers,

Right, Back home and have read of His Honour Judge Roderick Denyer QC handwork. Yes there are some similarities. American Express (Brandon case) did have an extra week in their Default Notice time. But I think key here is the service of the default Notice to me. I notice section 176 of CCA '74 goes something like this: Firstly s.176 Service of documents. E+W+S+N.I. (1) A document to be served under this Act by one person ( “the server ”) on another person ( “the subject ”) is to be treated as properly served on the subject if dealt with as mentioned in the following subsections. (2) The document may be delivered or sent [by an appropriate method] to the subject, or addressed to him by name and left at his proper address. (3) For the purposes of this Act, a document sent by post to, or left at, the address last known to the server as the address of a person shall be treated as sent by post to, or left at, his proper address. (4) Where the document is to be served on the subject as being the person having any interest in land, and it is not practicable after reasonable inquiry to ascertain the subject’s name or address, the document may be served by— (a) addressing it to the subject by the description of the person having that interest in the land (naming it), and (b) delivering the document to some responsible person on the land or affixing it, or a copy of it, in a conspicuous position on the land. (5) Where a document to be served on the subject as being a debtor, hirer or surety, or as having any other capacity relevant for the purposes of this Act, is served at any time on another person who— (a) is the person last known to the server as having that capacity, but (b) before that time had ceased to have it, the document shall be treated as having been served at that time on the subject. (6) Anything done to a document in relation to a person who (whether to the knowledge of the server or not) has died shall be treated for the purposes of subsection (5) as service of the document on that person if it would have been so treated had he not died. As the DN was not "left at his proper address." until one day prior to the expiry of the DN is would appear be defective. In other words it is not good enough to be stuck in a post box by the creditor and they assume it is delivered. Their termination arrived 5 days after the DN arrived Secondly On the last page of the PDF: "21. The law on this point is if the parties agree a reasonable sum to be paid as compensation for breach of contract, known as liquidated damages, the courts will enforce the agreement. The courts will not enforce a term that is a penalty for non- performance." My whole argument with the Bank has been how 'reasonable' or not this sum is. So tomorrow I will be accepting their unlawful rescission. Update tomorrow. Cheers,

Hi all, Thanks for the heads-up re the Brandon case, smugorwhat. The Co-op went for termination prior to the 14 days I should have had, but not before their 14 days, (ignoring the one day issue). Time will tell, I guess! Cheers,

WOW Thanks for this. 1 espresso coming up Then I'll start reading.

Hi, Though you might like this extra bit since the last post. I have just found a a secure message, from yesterday. Paraphrasing here; The phone operative I spoke to on Saturday needs to discuss some more points. Could I call them back. Arr. I didn't know they cared. I have replied. Along the lines of; since my conversation on Saturday 4th December, I have received a Termination Notice. I will therefore not be making any calls to the Bank. You will need to put any question(s) you have in writing. I do not want there to be any chance of misunderstanding which can sometime be the case with phone calls... Cheers,

Hi all, Its not Lloyds TSB. Now they have gone for termination I'm not bothered if they see this any more. This account is with The Co-orporation (trading as smile). I'll tell you a little bit more about Saturday after I got the letter. As the deadline was imminent I though I would ring, (don't normally) this was just to get a not on the records that I disagreed with the DN prior to expiry. So I called, went in the queue and after 20minutes, (use 0161 477 1927 not the 0845/0870 number they give you). I asked a simple question. How am I supposed to have 14 days to reply to the default notice when I have had only 1 actual day? The telephone operator said that I had been given plenty of time as the letter was posted 19th November. I again asked how I had been given 14 days’ notice, if I was not aware of the Default Notice? He said that I had been given enough time as they had posted it in enough time. We had a circular discussion for about half an hour including the phone drone refusing me the opportunity to speak to his Manager. Eventually he said I could have a call back from a manager within 48 hours. > Section 87(1) of the 1974 Act allows the creditor to send you a default notice giving you fourteen days from the date you receive it to pay the arrears. I have checked on the UKMail website and their Business service is a two day delivery option. Unless the Bank chose to use the cheaper choice; “for less time sensitive mail try our Economy Class, three day definite option”. Assuming the Bank used the two day service, (I would not call a Default Notice less time sensitive mail). 19th November is a Friday, so as Saturday and Sunday are not working days this would have meant that if the letter was delivered correctly it should have arrived Tuesday 23rd November at the absolute earliest. Therefore I still would not have had 14 days to respond prior to the Bank’s expiry date of 5th December. The only way the Bank could have given me enough notice would have been to arrange for next day delivery or hand delivered the letter the following day. So the fact that the letter took so long to arrive is an academic issue. By the way the promised 48hour call took twice as long to happen. I was not in so I had a message waiting for me. So the Bank have now sent a Termination Notice (dated 6th December), which arrived before they gave me a call back!!!! So it is now rescission time, (sorry bad pun). Decision time: Now I am a bit confused about this rescission business: The Defective DN was not for arrears only, it was for the whole amount outstanding. So as they have caused a rescission, can they start proceedings for the whole amount? After I have written to accept the termination of course. So even though the DN is defective they can still come after me as the DN and TN have the same (correct) amount. Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers, P.S. If a rescission is an unmaking of the contract to "pre-contract" conditions, I didn't have the overdraft made up of charges so surely I don't owe anything, (not that simple I guess)

I've done the DN. denisek. I agree, taking the pee and some. http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y369/carlyve/smile/ScanImage111_ALT.jpg I hope this is clear enough. Cheers,

Hello and thanks again for replies, Standard letter via UKMail then Royal Mail for the last mile. Yes, kept the envelope. Not franked on it as a business envelope but it does have those little orange & black dashes across the front which might prove something if push came to shove and it was analyzed by the Royal Mail and / or UKMail. I took the leap from XP to Windows 7 a couple of months ago. The scanner didn't make the jump as not compatible, (a topic for the beer garden perhaps ). Until I get a new scanner I drag out the old kit when needed - rarely. I'm in tomorrow evening so will do scan and post then. Ttfn

Thanks for coming back to me. The account is in dispute and the case with the FOS. The FOS have judged in favour of the other party. We had a few weeks to decided whether to accept or disagree with the judgement with a date in December. They just wanted to get the first strike in ;-) I wonderd if the DN was duff as even though they 'posted' is with just over two weeks before it expired, but as I only get it with a day to go. OR does the DN go in their favour regardless of how long I actually have to respond! Ta

Hi, I hope someone has a view on this query I received a Default Notice today, which expires 5th December - Tomorrow. The notice it self appears fine (i.e. a debt that I know about which is being disputed). What is a concern is that after a call to the organisation concerned, is they say - tough. It was posted 19th November and therefore meets their legal obligation to give 14 days to respond. Complain to the Post Office! What they will not answer is how I am supposed to respond with only one days 'actual' notice, plus I was not aware of the notice and therefore did not have 14 days. Discuss Many thanks for your help.

Hi everyone, "I am writing to tell you that we have now completed our review of your complaint. I enclose the ombudsman's decision... ...I am sorry to say that the ombudsman has not upheld your complaint" No surprise there really...... We have got 4 weeks to either accept or reject the decision. We will consider this over the next couple of days and probably send their form back REJECTED. Then the next step will be to start the court route. Smile are not getting any of their over-inflated charges back. Ttfn

Hi, I am sorry to hear of your problem. I hope the purchaser has made an genuine mistake with the cheque and it is nothing more than that. I am no expert on this sort of matter but I think the Co-op have probably protected themselves on this sort of thing for your own account, in the T & C's with regards the cashing of the cheque. In my smile T & C's is this, so probably the same for your Co-op account: 2.3 A cheque paid into your account may be returned unpaid. If this happens we will tell you and the amount may be taken from your account. We may ask for payment again from the bank of the person who issued the cheque or return it to you. If you withdraw some or all of the amount of a cheque which is later returned unpaid and this withdrawal or the unpaid cheque causes your account to go overdrawn or over any formal overdraft limit this will be considered an informal request to access our overdraft services in accordance with condition 13. You can assume that at the end of six business days, the cheque is cleared. After this time you are protected from any loss if the cheque is subsequently returned unpaid, unless it is found to be fraudulent or you are a knowing party to fraud. I must admit I didn't realise that before six days they could do this But for the bit about reversing a payment to another account seems very dodgy. When (for a much smaller amount) I had mistyped an account number for an online-payment which had left my account, I called and asked what the situation was about getting it back and they said, (apart from more fool you for typing it in wrong ), it is your responsibility to enter details correctly. AND 'there is nothing we can do once the money has left your account'. In my case there was no account matching the number so the money came back after a few days - phew! The Bank should have contacted you as per their condition above, and then which ever bank should have at least contacted your mum to ask for the money back? Perhaps come to some agreement on how to repay the money under the circumstances. Perhaps even honour* the amount while the situation is resolved. After all your Mum was expecting a payment and acted in good faith. It is not like your mum just happened to "find" some money in her account and went and spent it without considering where it came from. For example if the DWP messed up on my DLA payments and paid too much they would not just get their bank to swipe it back? They would have to ask for it back. I know when I was over paid by previous employer one month they didn't just take it back, the Personnel bod rather red faced came up to me and said we've coc##d up - we came to an amicable agreement. Surely even if your mum's account is with the same Bank they can't do that without authorisation / request? But I do wonder though if the Bank are trying to get away with this under the guise of fraud so they think they can do anything? I would be asking your mum's bank to be lenient regarding probable overdraft charges while the situation is looked at. I know these are not directly related but these are interesting non the less. 1) Someone made a payment to the wrong live account 2) The Financial Ombudsmen Service commenting on mistaken credits. BBC NEWS | Business | When click of a mouse cost £2,000 banking: mistaken credits - issue 33 - Nov 2003 Hopefully someone with a few more grey cells than me will be along to give you their view on this. Best of luck. * or is that an oxymoron; bank and honour in the same sentence

Hi Muffin999 One word of caution with the Co-operative though, (not saying you would get over-drawn by the way). They have a fairly strict policy 'three strikes and you're out' when it comes to unauthorised over-drawing. It is not a figure that is stated in the terms and conditions, more a benchmark they use so when it comes to it, they get you with the 'use the account properly' type condition that is in there somewhere. It has cropped up on some threads for the Co-op, for example: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/cooperative-bank/254666-closed-my-account.html Good luck