link for abbeys website for year and month goto the one closest to when you opened your account and navigate to bank accounts and then bank account conditions and it will give the terms and conditions of when you opened your account these seem to have stayed pretty much the same wording all the way through them Internet Archive Wayback Machine if you cant find it in the above link due to not being able to navigate the archive pm me or post on here the date you after and i'll see what the closest is i can find for you

ok update rcieved 2 letters today one from abbey in regards my second sar your statements for last 6 years will be with you shortly seems they dont read them as was requesting for pre 6 years So will re check my next steps on this later and chase that up Also letter from courts my local district judge has transferred my case to southend for allocation with similar cases in the essex area My question for clarification on this order means my case is now at southend county court and not my local court of colchester If so i'm now in GlennUk's territory Hi:-)

with recent events i would pm a mod or 2 to ask about this incase the judge is deciding to follow the loyds out come so you have arguments in place to fight your corner with My opinion on Lloyds Gate is the mistake was the OP not admitting to it being their action which caused a breach of contract

Abbey National: Personal Banking : Personal Banking conditions ^^ 5th feb 2002 terms and conditions ^^ BP sure will post link in the thread you on about if you can tell me which one it is thanks

ok same link as above but gives you months and years starting at dec97 until may 06 so should help for when you opened account Internet Archive Wayback Machine

Archivial info for abbeys terms and conditions not sure how old or recent but a start Abbey National: Personal Banking : Personal Banking conditions

the claiming of any interest including the Sec 69 8% in regards the charges is due to the fact that they have removed money that they were not entitled to and we are trying to claim it back at a higher rate as it was/is stated in contracrural terms what we will be charged for our default in the contract and as suchwe are asking for the recipical treatment in return the fact that money has not passed hands is irrelevant they would still have applied the default interest to the account the same also on the oldest charges if you had the money you should have then you would have had the money to pay the later charges and so on

hope all went well for you and in your favour Suspense is killing to find out the verdict

dont worry about pmming me the way i see it is that the banks do have the right to charge us a set interest rate for an overdraft we agrre to this as a form of load as the case they quote is loosley refering to though that is to do with when interest should be paid to a customer who pays funds in via a cheque and bank duty cycles on clearing said funds the argument i would look at putting forward is that due to the charges it is what has put you into the overdraft and if from the first charge being deducted only a true cost was taken then you would not have been into an overdraft to warrant paying the overdraft interest and though you agree that you should pay interest on your borrowing from the bank in the form of an overdraft the amount you are claiming back is how you believe the interest was charged due to the charges and if such is not the case then the defendant is more than welcome to figure out what the interest is on the amounts it has unlawfully deducted from the account over the period of time from when the first was taken until now as they have the resources to figure out a complex matter such as interest far easier than what you as a Lit in person does. I am sure if you have a fair minded judge they will go for this also the banks havent as yet entered a court building to defend their charging regime they just like trying to throw wheight around and scare people so they settle for less than what they were claiming for

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/79524-key-arguments-against-compound.html#post702306 is a link to all the summary points both for and against i have seen and links to threads the quotes/points were taken from

Update Nothing really to report nice letter from Moorcroft debt collection agencey saying that abbey have a nice dedicated complaints team if i would like to contact Abbey in regards the amount i owe on my overdraft that they have passed to this DCA after court proccedings were issued how nice of them i think i will contact abbey NOT Well AQ now printed off with my response to defense and asking judge to boot abbeys defence out will post in the morning as has to be there by monday 30th april heard nowt from abbey so next step ring courts monday to confirm reciept of my AQ and re-ring Tuesday to see if they got abbey's if not then ask for summary judgement again lol

Well done m8

Sorry to be a MOANY so and so But could we keep this thread on Topic with Legal arguments and Angles for claiming Authorised/unauthorised CI please by all means link to your claim if you think there is something relevent in it but please dont start discussing it in here it is what has happened in other threads in regards CI hence this thread to try and make it easier to see the different angles to approach it from

double post

you not quite at court bundle stage yet when abbey file defense you will get one of two things either a letter stating that an AQ questionaire wont be required and what track the judge is placing you on (RELATIVELY new and only a few have had this happen but it seems the courts are starting to issue this now to speed things up)and draft directions as to what is required (COURT BUNDLE) http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/80091-your-court-dispensing-allocation.html http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/79943-no-aq-straight-pre.html?highlight=oyster http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/78873-new-after-28-days.html#post695176 Or You will recieve an allocation questionaire for you to fill in so the judge can decide what track your case should be allocated to http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/57708-draft-order-allocation-questionnaires.html http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/53570-new-strategy-allocation-questionnaires.html So my advice would be to read up on filling in the AQ and there is a thread about if the judge deems no AQ is required when i find links will add them

because unfortunatley the banks settle the charge element without getting into court therefore leaving the lawfullness/unlawfullness of the charges unproven and the claiming of the CI element is as restitution for being deprived of your money instaed of the courts 8% sec 69

That is basicaly our reasoning Halibunny for why we are claiming unfortunatly as most of us see it the banks will claim that the interest charged at the 29% was only while you were in excess of your credit limit and not on the entire amount therefore when you paid money into the account it bought you either into credit or within your agreed credit limit so that amount of interest is not acceptable especially scince we are trying to charge CI from date of charge not over the period of ytime the charges had us over our limits Though your comments i feel are just and as said before the reasoning most of us use in court i feel it would not hold water without some form of legal backup as the banks would claim if their charging regime is found to be unlawful then sec69 8% interest is sufficent recompense for the time you were without your money that is why there is many a thread on here discussing the merits and dangers to a claim with CI and this thread was composed of what i saw as the main legal points that could be used to argue for CI from the threads and also some of the warnings others had expressed as well to try and give a balanced view to it all

and read this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/79524-key-arguments-against-compound.html for a summary of the CI arguments

thanks for your views charleyfarley it is why i posted it on here to get others opinions and then make a decision from there as unfortunatley the judge on this claim has issued AQ's on n150 to be filed by the 30th of april Section D i wasnt sure of the figure to put in there so thanks for that the counterclaim bit was put in as it was in the template library and as abbey in their defence have said i cant expect to pay nothing then i was looking at this as away of saying well they should have made a claim for true costs and not expect to just be refunded the difference in the amount they have charged to what they should have. make them prove a case justifying why they should now be paid £X now when in the first place they overcharged knowingly as for telling the judge his job i can see how it comes off that way by quoting the relevant CPR acts but i didnt want any misunderstanding to which parts i am refering as within this AQ i am trying to get abbeys defence thrown out as if they had failed to file a defence (hence my response to Abbeys defense trying to point the judge into seeing it as i wish them to )and get an award of judgement from there To be honest i doubt it will work but felt it is worth a try as nothing ventured nothing gained and all that But again thanks for your views and i will take them on board alongside any that anyone else posts before i edit/submit this

settled cases are here Dsilverstein http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/64871-spreadsheet-claims.html?highlight=settled+cases

Bump

CI interest can be a nice value added to your charges claim but it by no means an easy feat or really one for the light hearted as it entails reading alot and preparing arguments that could lead to nothing it is still realativly a new approach to claiming charges back and as such each case bought for CI is a learning curve the easiest way to do reclaim charges are to claim back exactly what was taken from yourself and then claim 8% simple interest if you file court proceedings using a company to me isn't an option as they wouldnt even entertain claiming CI as far as i am aware the choice has to be yours as to what you feel comfortable claiming and being prepared to argue/build a case to support

Ok update on 14Th April recieved the AQ from the courts it is on form N150 which is fine as i intend on asking for FAST TRACK now could do with some advice on how i have filled this in to make sure i havent done any major mistakes or missed anything out also when sending back this AQ plan on asking for the defence to be struck out subject to CPR 3.4 defence doesnt hold water and request summary judgement accordingly i wont be submitting this until the 23rd ish as doesnt need to be in until the 30th views and advice comments welcomed as always AQ Section A Settlement Do you wish there to be a one month stay to attempt to settle the claim, either by informal discussion or by alternative dispute resolution? No B Location of trial Is there any reason why your claim needs to be heard at a particular court? If Yes, say which court and why? YES XXXXXXX County Court The Claimant is a Litigant in Person, and claiming against a company that carries on business in this area, and thus the claim should be heard locally to the Claimant. C Pre-action protocols If an approved pre-action protocol applies to this claim, complete Part 1 only. If not, complete Part 2 only. If you answer ‘No’ to the question in either Part 1 or 2, please explain the reasons why on a separate sheetand attach it to this questionnaire. Part 2 No pre-action protocol applies to this claim. Have you exchanged information and/or documents (evidence) with the other party in order to assist in settling the claim? Yes D Case management information What amount of the claim is in dispute? £ What do i put in here CHARGES or CHARGES + CI @28.7% so 4454 or 11k Applications Have you made any application(s) in this claim? If Yes, what for? (e.g. summary judgment,add another party) No Witnesses so far as you know at this stage, what witnesses of fact do you intend to call at the trial or final hearing including, if appropriate, yourself Newbody the amounts debited and the dates on which the charges were taken Experts Do you wish to use expert evidence at the trial or final hearing?NO Have you already copied any experts’ report(s) to the other party(ies)? No Do you consider the case suitable for a single joint expert in any field? Yes Please list any single joint experts you propose to use and any other experts you wish to rely on. Do you want your expert(s) to give evidence orally at the trial or final hearing? No Track Which track do you consider is most suitable for your claim? Tick one box fast track If you have indicated a track which would not be the normal track for the claim, please give brief reasons for your choice The actual charges and overdraft interest elements of this claim total £4454.00 - the balance is for contractual interest applied under the principles of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract. This is set out in the Particulars of Claim (paragraphs 9 & 10), with rates of interest specified as the unauthorised borrowing rate, the authorised borrowing rate and also 8% s.69 County Courts Act 1984. As the claimant believes that the core of the claim lays in what the defendant charges in it's terms and conditions in regards a default by the claimant are nothing more than a penalty charge and not a true estimate of cost then The claimant would request Fast Track save as to cost where the claimant would respectfully request that small claims court rules be applied as the Defendant is a large organisation and could afford to exercise more expenditure on this case than that of the claimant. E Trial or final hearing How long do you estimate the trial or final hearing will take? 0 days 1 hours 0 minutes F Proposed directions (Parties should agree directions wherever possible) Have you attached a list of the directions you think appropriate for the management of the claim? Yes If Yes, have they been agreed with the other party(ies)?NO G Costs What is your estimate of your costs incurred to date?BLANK What do you estimate your overall costs are likely to be?BLANK Do not complete this section if you have suggested your case is suitable for the small claims track or you have suggested one of the other tracks and you do not have a solicitor acting for you. In substantial cases these questions should be answered in compliance with CPR Part 43 H Other information Have you attached documents to this questionnaire? Yes Have you sent these documents to the other party(ies)? Yes If Yes, when did they receive them? 2 days after posting this sent by recorded Do you intend to make any applications in the immediate future? No In the space below, set out any other information you consider will help the judge to manage the claim. Section H This issue is not a complicated one; it is an issue of fact and not of law. The issue is only whether the money levied by the Defendant in respect of its customer’s contractual breaches exceed their actual costs incurred. I am happy to pay their actual costs and I am surprised the Defendant did not counterclaim for these, because I would have paid them without argument. As the banks have a fiduciary duty towards their customers, they have a duty to deal straightforwardly and in utmost good faith. Though the actual amount that has been debited from the claimant is within the scope of a small claims court proceeding The defendant to date has to the claimants knowledge never yet made an apperance at a court trial to defend it's charging regime rather to settle a few days prior to the case beginning thus wasting and abusing the courts time and resources in the Claimants opinion (see attached annex 1 for a list of claims settled ) without admitting liability or wrong doing prior to trial but after court action was commenced. Thus it is the claimants contention that the defendant will once again choose to settle prior to trial . The claimant would respectfully ask the courts to study the defence filed by the defendant and form the view that no defence has been issued in regards this claim but a mere template form has been issued with the pertinent information filled in To which end the Claimant believes that the defendant has not addressed these issues in their defence and as such no defence to the claim has been submitted and for the courts to make a ruling pursuant to CPR 3.4 para (2) sub-para (a) and (b) Cpr 3.4 Power to strike out a statement of case In this rule and rule 3.5, reference to a statement of case includes reference to part of a statement of case. The court may strike out(GL) a statement of case if it appears to the court – that the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing or defending the claim; that the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process and for summary sudgement pursuant to CPR 24.2 Paragrah (a) sub-para (ii) and Paragraph (b) CPR 24.2 Grounds for summary judgment The court may give summary judgment against a claimant or defendant on the whole of a claim or on a particular issue if – (a) it considers that – (i) that claimant has no real prospect of succeeding on the claim or issue; or (ii) that defendant has no real prospect of successfully defending the claim or issue; and (b) there is no other compelling reason why the case or issue should be disposed of at a trial. If it should transpire that the claimant is wrong and the Defendant plans to pursue this matter to trial then the claimant contends that a fast track action will help bring a settlement faster to all the outstanding claims against the defendant by other individuals by setting a precedent. to which other claimants will be able to refer and hopefully free up the courts time and resources for more important matters. Therefore the Claimant respectfully requests that this claim be allocated to the Fast Track for the reasons set out in Section D and above. Notwithstanding allocation to the Fast Track, if the Court's direction is to allocate this claim to the Small Claims or Multi Tracks, the Claimant respectfully requests that a Small Claims Costs Order be made, and that directions as per CPR 31.6 Standard disclosure – what documents are to be disclosed · Standard disclosure requires a party to disclose only – · (a) the documents on which he relies; and · (b) the documents which – o (i) adversely affect his own case; o (ii) adversely affect another party’s case; or o (iii) support another party’s case; · © the documents which he is required to disclose by a relevant practice direction. be ordered The claimants response to the defendants defense As specified in the Claimants POC the Claimant contends the defendant hasn’t addressed any part of the claimants allegations and contends the following In respect of paragraph 2 it is agreed that 39378926 is the account which is in dispute In respect of paragraph 3 of the defence without liability the claimant contends that if there was/is such a contract then the defendant would also be held accountable to the same terms of the contract if they were in breach of it’s conditions. Otherwise for the contract to confer advantageous terms (i.e. entitlement to compensation) on one party (the defendant) where there is no comparable term in favour of the other party (the claimant) is to create an imbalance in the parties’ rights and is contrary to the requirements of Regulation 5 (1) of the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (“UTCCR”). Regulation 5 (1) of the UTCCR states as follows: “Unfair Terms 5. – (1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.” Therefore, to satisfy the requirement of fairness within the definition given by the UTCCR, the contract should provide a mutual or reciprocal term permitting the customer to apply the same rate of interest on any unauthorised withdrawals from the customer’s account by the bank. in respect of paragraphs 3 4 5 & 6 the Claimant maintains that due to the fact that the defendants charges in the terms and conditions are unenforceable by virtue of the unfair terms in consumer contracts Regulations (1999( paragraph 8 schedule 2(1) sub Paras (e)(i)(j)(q); also the unfair Contracts Terms act 1977 section 4 and the common law.That merly referring to the terms and conditions and not providing a true cost is no form of defence. in Respect of paragraph 8 the claimant denies that the fees charged as per the defendants terms and conditions are a true cost and proportionate to the defendants administrative costs With regards Paragraph 9 then the claimant contends that the interest he was charged whilst in default of the terms and condiotns if such a contract exsisted would more than compensate the defendant for the claimants breeches of the Account and as such should not be liable for any additional costing in regards paragraph 10 of the defnce they deny the claimants application that they are entitled to interest at any rate.Well the claimant would contend that if such a contract as in 3 above did exsist then both partiers would be equally bound by it and as such then as per 3 above the claimant contends that the breach is that of unauthorised borrowing of the bank and as such is subject to the defendants rate of unauthorised borrowing being 28.7% compounded in respect of paragraph 11 the claimant would argue that as the defendant has had the use of the claimants money without his permission then it would be logical to assume that the defendant would have used this money in it’s business therefore obtaining an enrichment Additional notes Draft directions Attached after above In the XXXXXX County Court Claim number XXXXXX Between Newbody - Claimant and Abbey National Plc - Defendant Draft Order for Directions The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court: a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made; b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made; c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise; d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon. e) A list of claim numbers settled prior to trial If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order. 2. The Defendant shall within 14 days thereafter file and serve a response to the Claimant's schedule, stating in respect of each item claimed; a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a copy of the contractual document relied upon; b) Whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty, and if not why not; c) If such charge is alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions (whether or not such action is treated as a breach of contract between the parties), all facts and matters intended to be relied upon as showing that such was a proper estimate of such loss, and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to what the true cost of dealing with the matter was; d) If such charge is not alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions then facts and matters intended to be relied upon showing the basis upon which the charge was calculated and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to show that the charge was fair and reasonable. e) Any witness statements. f) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon. g) A list of all claims in respect of bank charges that it has pursued to conclusion in court by trial If the Defendant fails to comply with this order, the Defence will be struck out without further order. Annex A DEFENDANT CLAIM NUMBER AMOUNT DATE ISSUED SETTLED? Abbey 4QZ2810928 £3,049.7 31 0/01/2006 YES Abbey 7CI00170 £1,713.56 31/01/2007 YES Abbey 6RG04466 £3,425.98 14/07/2006 YES Abbey 5QZ30938 £1,729.48 04/03/2006 YES Abbey 6CK02117 £10,235.37 13/06/2006 YES Abbey 6CL01687 £3,219.00 02/05/2006 YES Abbey 6DE02959 £3,992.44 19/04/2006 YES Abbey 6DE04574 £3,582.94 09/06/2006 YES Abbey 6HG03992 £9,825.84 20/09/2006 YES Abbey 6PE02904 £5,011.03 14/06/2006 YES Abbey 6PE04231 £1,5250 8/09/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ08692 £479.74 8/02/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ09627 £3,235.00 22/03/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ18498 £3,080.27 21/03/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ19764 £269.22 25/04/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ21137 £4,872.00 30/03/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ23148 £244.37 10/04/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ30791 £1,062.00 12/05/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ32624 £232.00 15/06/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ39038 £1,465.42 15/06/2006 YES Abbey 6IG03529 £4,309.15 26/09/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ41854 £3,349.90 YES Abbey 6QZ43864 £1,754.00 YES Abbey 6QZ48201 £1,376.26 20/07/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ67803 £110.38 28/09/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ71927 £1,147.13 YES Abbey 7QZ09584 £2,145.43 25/01/2007 YES Abbey 6SL00583 22/02/2006 YES Abbey 6SO05338 £2,245.00 28/07/2006 YES Abbey MMCK/KPSA1262/05 £228.00 02/12/2005 YES Abbey SA202/06 £618.00 18/03/2006 YES Abbey 6SY01327 £917.83 01/12/2006 YES Abbey 6TQ01886 £2,912.00 04/09/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ73062 £1,493.13 12/10/2006 YES Abbey 6QZ93002 £609.84 12/12/2006 YES Abbey 7QZ32441 £424.70 13/03/2007 YES Annex B Further schedule of charges at 28.7%

Many CONGRATULATINS well deserved :D

Best of luck golfscape watching closely now