PPI legal issues on DPA 1998 and CCA 1974

[alanalana]

Hello all,

 

new thread I have just popped in from the PPI thread and have been formerly with the unfair bank charges thread.

 

My question on the legal side is:

 

I have a question on CCA 1974 and section 77 subsection (3) it states that subsection (1) does not apply to---

(a) an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

(b) a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

 

I take it that this means that under section 77 subsection (3) (a) I cannot request the CCAs on Previous loans which were then refinanced ad infinitum? up to the present loan? ( for which I have received information).

 

Could a Mod or cagger with legal expertise advise if this is correct? and if so is the Data Protection Act 1998 the way to get the required information?

 

Thank you in anticipation of advice.

 

aa

[rory32]

I take it that this means that under section 77 subsection (3) (a) I cannot request the CCAs on Previous loans which were then refinanced ad infinitum?

Correct as the new agreement is the one that's important in terms of it's enforceability. Why do you wish to request them and how old are the previous loan agreements?

[alanalana]

Hello Rory,

 

Thank you for responding.

 

The reason is that all previous loans back to 2002 had PPI applied to them. I have a 40% war disability pension since 1992 and Pre Existing Medical Conditions were not included on the Loan Customer Duty of Care Checklist which I have just received for the existing loan. There is also no mention of Pre Existing Medical Conditions on the Loanguard Certificate of Insurance however Pre Existing Medical Conditions are listed as an exclusion in the Policy document. (I believe the same would apply for all previous loans).

The PPI on each of the loans was a single premium and the interest on the premiums has been included in the Total Charge for Credit TCC and under the TCC Regulations I believe this is not allowed if the PPI was optional.

 

If the bank do not supply the CCAs how do they stand if I claim missold PPI. I have paid £5.00 ie £1.00 for each of five loans I have received the documentation on the current loan should I ask for a £4.00 refund?

 

I believe the PPI was missold on each of the five loans and adds up on three of the loans to over £17,000.00.

 

regards

aa

[rory32]

Well they wouldn't have to supply them under the Consumer Credit Act, but you could request them under a SAR in which case they would have to supply them. They need to keep such documents for 5 years after closing the account, so they should still have them.

[alanalana]

Rory,

 

again my thanks to you for the help.

 

They need to keep such documents for 5 years after closing the account, so they should still have them.

Could you please give me the Legal reference to the five years after the account has closed.

 

The RBoS have been reluctant to release the information so far. My S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) was sent 7 Jan 08. 19 items of correspendence later and I still have been given only limited information. Account statements on my current account and three of five loans and only recently the CCA and other information on the existing loan.

I have a complaint lodged with the Information Commissioners Office but their two week response time is now a four week response time due to the workload.

 

regards

aa

[rory32]

Could you please give me the Legal reference to the five years after the account has closed.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/F/1/money_laundering_regulations2007.pdf Part 3 19. Record Keeping.

[alanalana]

Rory,

 

Thanks again.

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello all,

 

I have more legal questions.

 

I am currently pursuing documentation on 4 refinanced loans with the aim of claiming missold PPI. My S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) was sent 7 Jan 08 and still I have not been supplied with all the documentation. Namely CCAs, telephone records either tapes or transcripts etc etc. I have lodged a complaint with the Information Commissioners Office and have a letter of complaint prepared to send to FSA, FOS, Information Commissioners Office, OFT and BBA.

 

My Bank is RBS and the Branch is in Scotland. My Claim will on three of five loans be in excess of £17K and probably more if the information on the other two is forthcoming.

 

1. Can anyone please give me guidance on the procedures within the Law and Courts in Scotland for this sort of amount?

 

2. What Preparation should I do, POC, court bundles etc?

 

3. Does the procedure differ grately from English Law?

 

4. Should I seek legal help once I get all the required information?

 

5. Rather than make a mistake and lose out on a technicallity at Law should I consider getting a PPI reclaim service to do this for me?

 

Any and all assistance will be appreciated.

 

If this is the wrong thread and I have a sneaky suspicion it may be can anyone point me to the correct one please?

 

Thank you

 

aa

[rory32]

1. Can anyone please give me guidance on the procedures within the Law and Courts in Scotland for this sort of amount?

 

Unless you can break the claim down into smaller amounts (which is probably unlikely) I would let the FOS deal with your claim and see if you can get anywhere with them. If you go through the courts it will be an ordinary cause action where you really need to know exactly what you are doing and follow the correct court process exactly. If you were to lose you would have to pay the other sides costs.

2. What Preparation should I do, POC, court bundles etc?

I see no reason to initailly go through the courts when the FOS will deal with your claim.

3. Does the procedure differ grately from English Law?

If you go through the courts, yes.

4. Should I seek legal help once I get all the required information?

If you are not familiar with ordinary cause then you probably will need some form of legal asistance at some stage. It really depends how much reading and work you are willing to do yourself.

5. Rather than make a mistake and lose out on a technicallity at Law should I consider getting a PPI reclaim service to do this for me?

I would urge against this. As previously stated the FOS can look at your case for free and if you don't like their decision you can then go to court. For an ordinary cause action I certainly wouldn't use one of these reclaiming companies who often have very little legal knowledge.

[alanalana]

Hello Rory,

 

and Thank you again for your welcome advice. I have considered the FOS but the date of my loans are:

 

August 2002 to March 2003 Direct Line Financial Services

May 2003 to March 2004 Direct Line Fnancial Services

April 2004 to May 2005 Royal Bank of Scotland

June 2005 to August 2006 Royal Bank of Scotland

September 2006 to date Royal Bank of Scotland.

 

Each of the loans was refinanced into the next in chronological order up to the current loan.

 

I think the first two and possibly three loans would be before the FSA ruling on PPI and therefore the FOS may not be prepared to look at them.

 

The unfair bank charge issue did not allow you to split claims to meet the financial limits on small claims in the Sherrifs court, I presume it would be the same for the PPI issues?

 

This is uncharted territory for PPI and as a lot of PPI has been missold including I believe mine I want to tread carefully.

 

this is my link on the PPI thread, I know you Mods are busy people but if you have time to check it out and give me any guidance it would be appreciated.

 

alanalana PPI claim against RBS (looking for some help) please

 

Regards

 

aa

[rory32]

The unfair bank charge issue did not allow you to split claims to meet the financial limits on small claims in the Sherrifs court, I presume it would be the same for the PPI issues?

 

Well techiically each new loan is a seperate account so it's not the same as splitting claims on a single account. You would need to finish one claim before starting another though in order to avoid the bank using their right to lump your claims together.

 

Your first loan, before refinancing, would now be statute barred in a Scottish court.

[alanalana]

Hello Rory,

 

would that be statute barred even though I had requested information on it on 7 Jan 2008 but the bank failed to produce the information requested in the SAR within the statutory 40 days. If they had responded within the 40 days then I could have submitted a claim within the statuted time limitations ie the 5 years within the Money Laundering Regulations 2007 Part 3 19 because they did not respond in a timely manner does that give me any leeway for a late claim?

 

That's a bit of a bummer then, what is the statute in Scottish Law? for a case to be submitted? presume it is the 5 year limit?

 

I presume then that I can only claim on the last four loans, but one at a time. I think the amounts would still fall outside the small claims which brings me back to a requirement for a Scottish Legal representative.

 

Am I too late to transfer my account to an English branch?

 

Thanks again

 

aa

[rory32]

That's a bit of a bummer then, what is the statute in Scottish Law? for a case to be submitted?

You need to bring the action within 5 years.

I presume that I can only claim on the last four but one at a time. I think the amounts would still fall outside the small claims which brings me back to a requirement for a Scottish Legal representative.

You do know that the Scottish small claims is now £3K? If your individual claims are not in small claims then they may well be in summary cause whic is really very similar to small claims except that costs can be awarded. If any of your claims are above £5K then they would be above the limit for English small claims anyway.

[alanalana]

Hello again Rory,

 

If my claims are above the Scottish and English small claims system what is the next step up from that?

 

My claims on the three RBS loans for missold PPI would be as follows:

 

These are only the Single Premium figures for the PPI on its own!!

April 2004 to May 2005 Royal Bank of Scotland £6,109.32 + interest

June 2005 to August 2006 Royal Bank of Scotland £7,534.90 + interest

September 2006 to date Royal Bank of Scotland. £8,448.72 Less the rebate on cancellation total outstanding to claim £1,297.91 + interest

 

 

Total claim on the three RBS loans £17,931.99

 

and possibly one Direct Line Loan if the RBS comply with my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

 

I could probably go to the FOS for the last two and Court on the first one.

 

Regards

aa

[alanalana]

Hello again,

 

these are from another PPI thread can you let me know please if this is legally correct.

 

The Limitation Act 1980 states:

© the action is for relief from the consequences of a mistake;

the period of limitation shall not begin to run until the plaintiff has discovered the fraud, concealment or mistake (as the case may be) or could with reasonable diligence have discovered it.

References in this subsection to the defendant include references to the defendant's agent and to any person through whom the defendant claims and his agent.

 

My question on this post.

 

I do not intend to hijack your thread but am interested in post 4.

does that mean then that old loans with PPI added can still be claimed for even though they go back beyond the FSA ruling on PPI and the 14 Jan 2005 date of the ruling by FSA on PPI misselling

 

and the response

 

Hi,

As far as I can make out the time starts from when you found out about the problem, rather than when the account / loan/ cc / ppi was taken out.

 

Are you able to confirm this?

Thank you

aa

[rory32]

You can go back further than 6 years using this arguement but of course whether the judge agrees with you or not is another matter.

[alanalana]

Rory,

 

Thanks I will stick with the 6 years, 5 for Scotland thank you..

 

aa

[rory32]

Well if the majority of the claim is within 6 years you stand a better chance of going back a little further. Worst case scenario is that the judge will only give you 6 years.

[alanalana]

Rory,

 

Thanks again.

 

I understand the Judge in A Court would take into account multiple loans with PPI issued and may take those into account when making a considered decision within Law.

 

Would he also take into account the possibility of an Unfair relationship between bank and consumer/customer in so far as the bank has made 5 unsolicited approaches to an individual to refinance and each time included PPI.

 

I mean the bank can see my every DD SO my income, my pensions, etc etc they can see when I may be in a vulnerable position and use that as a means to Phone about a refinance. Each time they do this they the customer advisor is likely to gain points towards a bonus!

 

Namely Section 21 and the statement...

 

"The sections also cover, through the definition of "related agreement",

the practice where the creditor enters into successive credit agreements with a debtor for the purpose, for example, of increasing the total amount of the debt or obtaining multiple fees from the debtor for setting up each loan"

 

could this argument be used for 5 loans in 6 years?

 

regards

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello Rory and all,

 

Rory from earlier post from yourself.

 

Well they wouldn't have to supply them under the Consumer Credit Act, but you could request them under a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) in which case they would have to supply them. They need to keep such documents for 5 years after closing the account, so they should still have them.

 

My original S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) on 7 January requested information on five loans. Two with DLFS and three with RBS. Four of the five are within the last five years.

 

Today I received a response from RBS as follows:

 

1. We have been unable to locate any paperwork relating to the two loans you have previously held with Royal Bank of Scotland. This does not form part of a Subject Access Request but we have forwarded this to our PPI Complaints Team.

 

2. With regard to the two loans with DLFS this has been passed on to the relevant Department who will correspond directly with you.

 

3. We have been in touch with staff at Peterhead branch and they have no record of any telephone conversation between both parties.

 

Can someone please confirm that a SAR is not specific to a single loan account but to any and all data held by that organisation which is requested by the subject in the SAR.

In paragraph 1 they are stating that they have no paperwork on two previous loans.

These loans were between Apr 2004 and May 2005 and

June 2005 and August 2006.

 

Surely they had an obligation to retain the paperwork for five years?

 

Any advice will be greatfully received.

 

Regards

 

aa

Edited May 9, 2008 by alanalana
date amended

[alanalana]

Hello all,

just a bump up to get a response please also if someone can check this link to confirm I am ok in writing what I am.

 

alanalana PPI claim against RBS (looking for some help) please

 

Thank you

 

aa