Bill Of Sales and repossession of goods - NOTE: much of this is now out of date - dx 2016

[Nicky Bodmin]

There are a number of companies operating on the basis of loans secured on property, for example cars. These loans are often provided for relatively small amounts of money, with very high rates of APR (often, over 100, and cases of APR’s over 200% are not uncommon).

 

In many cases, the results of even minor infractions of the rules on these agreements are severe; resulting in the repossession of the goods, and charges that can often amount to hundreds of pounds, while the debtor remains liable for more than the original cost of the loan.

 

However, in almost all cases due to technical mistakes by the creditor, the securities offered by these agreements are null and void even if the underlying debt is not.

 

What is a bill of sale?

 

 

The definition is so broad that it includes any security on private goods (other than a house or land), but do not include any agreement where the goods automatically pass to the lender.

 

But a bill of sale is not a pawnbroking agreement, where the debtor parts from possession of the goods, and redeems them at the end of the contract, or a “sale and buyback” scheme, where the customer sells the goods to the creditor (who then owns them, and gains possession of them), with the “debtor” having an option to purchase the goods back after a period of time), or a hire purchase scheme.

 

for the formal definition look up http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=bills+of+sale&Year=1878&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=1054646&ActiveTextDocId=1054652&filesize=4315

 

 

The statutory requirements for a bill of sale to be valid.

 

1. The bill of sale must be in the correct form and contain the prescribed information contained in the 1882 act.

 

2. The bill of sale must be registered.

 

If either requirement is not met, the bill of sale is void (that is, the security will not be enforceable, although the underlying debt may be).

 

Form and Content of a Bill of Sale.

 

The language for some of the wording is is archaic, which most ordinary people today wouldn’t understand. Nevertheless, if not in the prescribed form, it renders the bill of sale void.

 

It will be rendered void if it does not contain:

• The date of the bill
  
• The names and address of the parties
  
• A statement of Consideration
  
• An acknowledgement of the receipt of the advance
  
• An assignment by way of security of particular goods, capable of description
  
• Statements of the sum secured, the rate of interest, and the instalments by which repayments are made,
  
• Agreed terms for the maintenance of security
  
• A clause limiting the grounds of seizure to one of the following:
  
  • Default with the repayments or any covenant of the bill
    
  • Bankruptcy or seizure of the goods for rent, rates, or taxes.
    
  • If the granter fraudulently removes goods, or arranges for their removal
    
  • If execution has been levied against the goods
    

   

  [*]A schedule containing a description of the chattels

  [*]Execution (signature) by the granter (borrower)

  [*]A statement in the form of the 1882 act

  [*]Attestation by a witness not a party to the bill

  [*]Registration

The consideration is the amount the borrower receives for the bill of sale; NOT the sum secured by the bill (which would include interest and costs). For example, if the agreement is regulated by a consumer credit agreement, it would have to use the amount that was advanced to the borrower BEFORE charges, costs and interest.

 

The bill of sale must contain a statement in the form provided by the act. Here is the wording: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=bills+of+sale&Year=1882&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=1055715&ActiveTextDocId=1055738&filesize=2273 . This is often missing.

 

If a credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act is secured on a bill of sale, and the bill of sale is void, the credit agreement may also void by virtue of the act, although the law on this is VERY unclear. I would recommend getting into contact with the national debt line on this issue.

 

So. You’ve got a copy of the bill of sale, and it is a rare bill of sale that complies in all respect with the acts.

 

Can it be enforced?

 

Registration

 

A bill of sale can only be enforced if it was properly registered. Since this is an expensive and difficult process, it is rare that this actually happens. However, failure to register the bill of sale renders it void, and so renders any security on goods void.

 

Consequently, before allowing any creditor to gain possession of your goods, ask to see a registered copy of the bill showing the supreme courts seal.

 

You can also call the national debt line, and ask them how to search the registry yourself.

 

Requirements of the consumer credit act

 

Most bills of sales are also regulated by the consumer credit act. Such a security will be no more valid than the consumer credit agreement. The requirements of the consumer credit act include:

• A description of the security should be included/embodied in the credit agreement
  
• The bills of sale must be presented to the debtor at the time the credit agreement was signed
  
• The creditor will normally have to issue a default notice before calling in the debt.
  
• The terms of the bills of sale must be consistent with the credit agreement.
  
• The agreement must not be extortionate ( if made before 2007) or constitute an unfair relationship(after 2007)
  

All the other, normal requirements of the consumer credit act apply. It is also possible to apply for a time order to prevent the repossession of goods under the consumer credit act 1974.

 

Enforcement of Bills of sale

 

Before you are required to give up your property, they must (if you ask for it) provide a valid bill of sale exists, that bears the stamp of the Supreme Court.

 

However, repossession does not need to be carried out by a certified or professional “enforcement officer” given this, the professional conduct of those actually repossessing goods is of serious question, AND I ADVISE ANYBODY when presented by a bill of sale to call the police immediately, informing them that you are afraid of a breach of the peace and asking for their attendance.

 

Im desperate to find out if the bill of sale document I have on a Log Book Loan is correct. They say it has been registered. I am fighting to get my car back. I bought it from a friend and I was not aware of any loan on the car. They came 27 July without any paperwork police where called and now they have my car. After reading info on this brill site I have got a copy of the bill of sale. Can somebody please take a look to see if it is legal

Edited October 6, 2009 by Nicky Bodmin
removal of details

[Nicky Bodmin]

I have just read the above information, I have just had my car taken by balifs. They removed the car under a log book loan from the previous owner who is a friend. I new nothing about about the LBL untill the balif turned up in January this year to reposse the car. The car was at the time in a garage having a new engine new clutch and MOT. All of which I paid for. The car was then given to me because the promise of payment from my friend fell through just after I paid for the engine by credit card on the 8th January this year. This was to cover the money used for the repair due to the fact that I had paid for all the repairs to the said vehical.ey I paid to put the car back in working order. i contacted the LBL and told them that the car was mine because the person that had the loan couldnt pay me the money I had used to pay all the garage bills. I kept calling but nothing happened. My friend had not recieved any kind of paper work telling him of their intentions to remove the car. Untill they came this week.

After reading other posts I have taken a closer look at the bill of sale

I have fouind several opoints that would void the bill of sale. Can any one pease confirm this for me

There was only two signiture on the bill of sale the agent for the lender and my friend the borrower. Its states that the witness has to be independant of names listed on the bill

I would also like the bill of sale that was used to enforce the removal of goods to be cheaked because I really dont no what to look for would anyone be able to do this

Edited July 29, 2009 by Nicky Bodmin

[Nicky Bodmin]

Yes I would like to see one as well my car has been taken and I am trying to find problems with mine but I really dont no how to compare all doc BOS and CA. I have found that the 2 signitures are not the ones needed. One witness is the rep that did the agreement as far as Im concerned that is wrong it has to be no one listed on the Bill so possibly this can void the BOS. How do I cheak or who can I take it to to be cheake. Please advice me, I only have a few days to stop this sale

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi I have found probably the quickest way forward to getting your car back from LBL it is by applying to the Royal Courts to void the BOS. I have just spoken to the Royal Courts Enforcement Section and their advice was an application on a N244 form with a £40 fee. Outlinning the reason why the BOS should be removed. Can anyone please help me with the wording for this application. Mine is based on the fact that the witness signature is by their company Rep. I was adviced by the Courts that the Affidavit has to be witnessed and signed by Commission for Oath ie Solicitor or a member of the court staff. None of this has been done. Is there a letter to help me with this. And a second part to this is the car that was repossessed was no longer the person who took out the loan. It is a breach of Consumer Credit Act 1974 gives (good title) to the innocent private purchaser of a car. Is the any letter for this so I can email this to LBL

 

I like u guys, u kick ars in a manner Im beginning to enjoy many thanks Nicky Bodmin

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Im trying to put together an application to the High court. I no that the correct wording is very important. My grounds to void the BOS are as follows:

 

!. There rep signed the BOS

 

2 I have two BOS one stamped and one that was sent to me neither I signed

 

3. The CA two I didnt sign They left me with copy of CA. The CA they have is not signed by me

 

4 No default was given

 

5 Debt was in disput from hour after deal done

 

6 The amount recieved was not the amount set out on CA

Can any one advice me how to put that on my application

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi count me in. I am at min putting my application together for the High Courts. and County Court on a time Order but anything I can do to help put these people on the dole Im here. Im also sending copies of all paperwork to OFT and the Commissioner Office Trading standards had there copy yesterday and is being sent to Wandsworth TS as they are taking Action now. I am doing this for my friend who cant deal with this any more he is signed off sick as a result of it. We had a meeting yesterday to go through the Court paperwork and to sign it for me and this is the first time he has seen all doc together and has told me that none of the signed doc are his signature. We are sending a copy of his signature of driving Lic and passport as proof. So not one of the doc is his hand writing it just gets better every day. I cant wait to hang them. They laughter at me when I first approached them and asked for a copy of the registered BOS. Lets see how hard they are laughing when I finish with them. T0old them all to start looking for work that's if some of them don't end up in jail. Now isnt that a nice thought lol

[Nicky Bodmin]

Another thing that has come to light is that the cheque they gave my friend was for £1300 and the credit Agreement said £1500. He didn't dispute it at the ti9me because he was so desperate at the time and feared them with drawing the loan.

And was advised where to cash cheque took it there and they gave him £960 pounds with no warning. And of course the cheque had already been signed to the company.

He complained to the Rep who sold the loan with in the hour and nothing to this day has been done. That's why my friend never made any payments

[Nicky Bodmin]

some where in Truro I have to try find out probably a shop to do with them I will find out

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Silly Fool : )

 

I should ignore the statment - Halsbury was probably referring to a totally different matter altogether.

 

What I mean is: The bill of Sale is governed by the Bill of Sale Act 1878 and the Bill of Sale 1882 as amended - no where in the Bill of Sale Act does it make any reference what so ever to Halsbury (do you get my drift...??) If they wish to use Halsbury case law - they would have to present it to a Judge (not in a letter to a consumer) and clarify it's relevance to your claim that their Bill of Sale is suspect.

 

I suspect if they are sending you a statement from Halsbury's case law - then they are already on the 'backfoot' so's to speak - it really is no defence

 

I would write to them asking them to give you details as to where you can locate the citation or send you a copy of the case they refer to - so you can be sure of it's relevance to you

 

could you mean(Horsley.v.Style,1893, 69 L. T.222)

www.archive.org/stream/encyclopaediaofl02polluoft#page/132/mode/2up

[Nicky Bodmin]

Encyclopaedia of the laws of England, being a new abridgment

Try this if not go to post by Muska near top of this page and use their link good luck

[Nicky Bodmin]

Technorati: Join Us

Ok, don't want to be a COMPLETE bore, but case law says: following Seal v Claridge (1881) 7 QBD 516, it was held that attestation must be independent of the bill of sale. This follows Freshfield v. Reed in that the party to an instrument cannot “attest” it. This statutory requirement to attestation is differentiated from and does not have the same meaning as to "testify". The term “attest” manifestly implies that a witness shall be present, to testify that the party who is to execute the deed has done the act required by the power; the object of which was, that some person should verify that the deed was signed voluntarily.

 

So an employee cannot "attest" a BoS, as they can witness, say, other contracts. If lbl are going to use an antiquated draconian instrument, they have to get it exactly right. The attestation is also a statutory requirement, so the courts can't overlook this.. I will have to add this back to my claim

Unfortunately an emplyee is not the same as a party to the Bill. As long as that emplyee does not personally gain from the agreement. The rep recieving the commision from the agreement YES is a party to the BOS and can not act as a witness. Please look at my link with BILL BEN and LITTLE WEED it makes it esier to understand who can do what

[Nicky Bodmin]

Right, a bill of sale must be attested "The execution of every bill of sale by the grantor shall be attested by one or more credible witness or witnesses, not being a party or parties thereto" (i.e. someone must witness your signing the bill of sale. this makes the agreement properly executed. )

 

The second part of the process is registering the bill of sale. This involves the credible witness to the execution of the bill of sale swearing an oath that they saw you sign the bill of sale:

 

"Such bill, with every schedule ... every attestation of the execution of such bill of sale, together with an affidavit of the time of such bill of sale being made or given, and of its due execution and attestation, ...shall be filed with the registrar within seven clear days after the making or giving of such bill of sale..."

 

It's not the debtor, or (in my opinion) the creditor that needs to swear the oath, it is the witness. I'm not aware of any case law to back this assertion up, it is just what makes sence.

Hi the creditor is not allowed to swear the oath only a solicitor not the solicitor to the creditor or anyone in his office. Shame because if anyone has had affidavit sworn by LBL solicitor that sworn the oath then he will be done for perjury. It has to be sworn by court staff that can swear the oaths. or independent solicitor.

Right the BOS is the security of the loan agreement. Without the security of the BOS LBL will not offer a loan. They only offer secured loans. And the loan is secured by the BOS. I Quote from their pre contract information set out in their Terms and Conditions point 5 "The BOS is embodied in and forms part of this agreement" Because the BOS makes up part of the agreement (contract) the other part being the CA,the rep that signs the CA (being as the BOS forms part of the agreement, as stated above) must therefore be a party to the BOS. Because he is paid on the completion of the secured loan

[Nicky Bodmin]

Right, a bill of sale must be attested "The execution of every bill of sale by the grantor shall be attested by one or more credible witness or witnesses, not being a party or parties thereto" (i.e. someone must witness your signing the bill of sale. this makes the agreement properly executed. )

 

The second part of the process is registering the bill of sale. This involves the credible witness to the execution of the bill of sale swearing an oath that they saw you sign the bill of sale:

 

"Such bill, with every schedule ... every attestation of the execution of such bill of sale, together with an affidavit of the time of such bill of sale being made or given, and of its due execution and attestation, ...shall be filed with the registrar within seven clear days after the making or giving of such bill of sale..."

 

It's not the debtor, or (in my opinion) the creditor that needs to swear the oath, it is the witness. I'm not aware of any case law to back this assertion up, it is just what makes sence.

Hi Tom I need to correct the last statement who swears the Oath. The only people than can swear the Oath is a court Offical or solicitor, not a witness unless he is any of the above

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Log Book Loan Crusader, I think your suggestion is masterful...

 

If you can get a group campaign together - a 'super' complaint can be taken to the OFT I'm sure - Site Team is that correct??

 

Also your post got me thinking.... we all come on CAG and voice our opinions to empower each other - Would the Site Team advise if they would advocate individuals that send letters to any creditor signing after their name 'Consumer Action Group Member'??

 

If allowed - creditors would start getting the message that we do lobby -albeit to one another at the moment - What do you say Site Team - would it be a good idea or should we continue as we are?

Hi apple the application direct to the High Courts is simple one straight forward application on an N244 basic application.It costs £40 and it is put to the Judge and you have the result within 7 days.

I have never seen the point in going to a lower court , that way they have a defence that would have to be heard. This way a decision is made without them even being told of the application.

Time is not on our side with these people. Ha ha

If everyone was to go direct, lets face it, its the highest court in the land. That where BOS is given its power to destroy, so cant see a better place to remove it.

Also they cant appeal it especially if the application requests it to be final without appeal. There what do u think.

Yes im all for the group OFT approach, I was on the phone to them yesterday and didn't get very far I was looking to try and link my complaint to previous complaints. Problem is if they all get send separately they get lost in the system.

What I suggest is as soon as we get one put to them we need to give the name of the person who is dealing with it and publish the name and contact details ie email address so we force OFT to stand up and look. Problem is these people dont talk to each other so it is our job to make them talk We need to start a new thread even a sticky on the high court Issue and OFT isseu. From my experiance of the site, is we are getting lost in everybodys experiance and we have lost the direction to get to them. Now its time to focus here, We need to seperate the logbook loan thing into thre parts.

1.A section for people to ask advice, put there stories infront of the forum

 

2The High Court Application. Post examples of different formats to void.

Keep it short. They have used only a few ways they dont comply with the Act. PUBLISH them and give the templaints needed

 

3A section for OFT section with details of who is dealing with the complaints.

 

We can beat these people and without the aid of a solicitor. We can do

[Nicky Bodmin]

"I was on the phone to them yesterday and didn't get very far I was looking to try and link my complaint to previous complaints. Problem is if they all get send separately they get lost in the system"

 

Subject access request them, you "should" get your link, they to supply you with ALL your data, even phone call transcripts. They have 40 days to comply.

 

trooper68

Hi I think you mean I was taking to LBL no it was the OFT. I dont talk to LOG because all I want to do is swear at them and punch their faces. Sorry I was enjoying the thought of that. LOL. I did tell them when I last spoke to them that they need to start looking for new job because by the time I have finished with them they would be signing on. Then they to can experiance hardship. I enjoyed that to. Does this make me a naughty person I hope so

[Nicky Bodmin]

I dont think with the direct action to high courts we need to wait for the 40 days to get details we all have all we need just from getting the CA and BOS from them and High Courts should only take a few weeks from start to end

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Nicky

 

Good point you made about getting the BoS declared void by making application to the HCJ; I like that!!! - No need for a court injunction at a whopping £150.00!!!! or solicitors fees!!!!!

 

Once the Bill of Sale is declared null and void, then they can no longer rely on it as a security and therefore cannot seize it....

 

looks like the 'mystery' behind a BoS is beginning to become a whole lot clearer in our modern times : )

Hi again apple the BOS is not the big issue we once thought it to be. We just need to no how to handle the interpretations of it.

The main one is the attestation of it. I made it very simple in a previous reply to someone. I would like to try find it because it simplifies the whole attestation part .

 

If anyone can locate it my Ref to BILL

It makes it so easy to understand, so that we know how they have used the new attestation rules in their favour.

And this is how LBL have moved our attention away from the witness signature part. They have used it incorrectly and this gives us the way of challenging them on YES an employee can be witness

[Nicky Bodmin]

I thought it was £40?

Hi Sequenci the fee is £5.00

[Nicky Bodmin]

That brill news for every one, but me I have had my car taken. Now what do I do. Sorry if that sound bad but its brill for all that still have their cars but mine was taken and sold.

[Nicky Bodmin]

I want to put my links up as stickys the bill ben ref u read it yet. I posted the letter to LBL today and emailed it yesterday. And just emailed Julita with it to

[Nicky Bodmin]

Im still going to send my claim to High Courts

[Nicky Bodmin]

No its a basic N244 form I spoke to the guy on the BOS section.have a look at this link.http://.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/log-book-loans-bills/219794-can-there-more-than-2.html

The description is a good void method and every one can see that for them self. I need to get these points made on that link right in every bodies face and did you read my letter I sent to them today Yes we have got them by the curlies. I will be emailing the member of staff that I told need start looking for more work. I might send her the contact details of her nearest job centre what do u think. Might even call them in the morning just to see what **** they still coming up with. I like to have a little fun with the very person that a few months ago sat so smug and said its our car. Choke on that one bitch

Edited October 29, 2009 by Nicky Bodmin
spelling

[Nicky Bodmin]

Dont worry I not losing faith Im in for the duration. I have not ground my heel in their faces enough yet. I finish when They are walking out of their office for the last time. And hopefully I will be there to see it. But it is time we start putting these forum in order. There are so many different ways that LBL have messed around with the BOS act I know quite a few. We need to put them up with all the points clear and in an easy way with ref back to the legal stuff, so people don't have to waist any more time telling there story.They can read it and cross ref to what they have got. We need site guys on this fast I posted alot of links to day

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi find the thread can there be more than one BOS its on page 2 at bottom if its the Bill Ben ref u want

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Apple and all,

 

I agree solicitors in my experiance have not given me any usful advice ever. I am in Court in morning over a diff matter and if I had listen to what was my solicitor I would have lost and not even entred in on the case.

Not only did ICO say the company were in breech o0f several of their principles, but just had FOS go in my favour to.

So solicitors are never trust nor listen to.

Even over LBL Stephensons who were involved in the beginning their advice was bad.

I always say go with the first gut feeling.

Then come on here and ask lots of questions. You will soon find your case.

Then stand firm and go for it.

 

Not all solicitors are bad only the ones I no.

lol