Cabot/hudsons claimform - old barclaycard debt

[joghuj]

Well, all I wanted them to do was sign the application to Probono. They were a bit hesitant but eventually persuaded them.

 

I've bundled everything together and sent it all off yesterday.

[Rhia]

Good work Joghuj at least you should get a barristers opinion on this once and for all.

[Jeff2000]

Good work Joghuj at least you should get a barristers opinion on this once and for all.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, fingers crossed!!!

[questioning]

Well, all I wanted them to do was sign the application to Probono. They were a bit hesitant but eventually persuaded them.

 

I've bundled everything together and sent it all off yesterday.

 

Glad your persuasion worked,

Any idea how long you have to wait to find out if they will take your case on or not?

[joghuj]

Not sure, about a week or so I think, I'll have to check.

 

To be honest, I'm almost feeling like I can't do any more anyway. It's been a pretty grim 18 months and affected my life so I may just pack it all in. I'll see what the Probono say but I noticed another thread the other day where someone had approached them and they didn't have time to look at the case so not holding much hope.

 

We'll see...

[pt2537]

Not sure, about a week or so I think, I'll have to check.

 

To be honest, I'm almost feeling like I can't do any more anyway. It's been a pretty grim 18 months and affected my life so I may just pack it all in. I'll see what the Probono say but I noticed another thread the other day where someone had approached them and they didn't have time to look at the case so not holding much hope.

 

We'll see...

Hi,

 

You need to keep positive, if your that negative now then we may as well just go home

 

You need to be strong, determined and dont take NO for an answer

 

If the Pro Bono dept doesnt help, its not the end of the world, far from it there are other avenues you can exhaust

[questioning]

Hi Joghuj,

I'm sorry you are feeling bad.

I've just taken a look at the probono site for the first time. In fact I'd never heard of it until recently reading about it on CAG.

 

Referring to my question of "How long until you know if they will help".....

It says..........

'We will aim to contact the referring solicitor or agency with a decision as to whether or not we can help within 3 weeks of receiving the application form and all necessary documents.'

[questioning]

Hi,

 

You need to keep positive, if your that negative now then we may as well just go home

 

You need to be strong, determined and dont take NO for an answer

 

If the Pro Bono dept doesnt help, its not the end of the world, far from it there are other avenues you can exhaust

 

Out of interest (sorry, why do u think I'm called 'Questioning') what other avenues are there? As you can see I have only just learned of Probono.

 

One thing I have had a thought about, What about householders insurance, don't these some times provide legal help? sorry if its a stupid question.

[pt2537]

There are a number of options,

the CLS may be able to put him in touch with someone who will take the case on a no win no fee, or probono basis

 

house insurance is another option, as is legal aid??you never know unless you ask!! you may be lucky.

[questioning]

I see Paul Thanks, I always thought that you only got legal aid if you were on benefits and as Joghuj works i never included this as an option in his case.

A quick search of the web and it seems my assumption is wrong......

There is a wealth of info on the web concerning this, never had to look for such info myself. I'm glad i had a look, as Paul said, it seems there are quite a few options for you Joghuj.

This is from Direct . Gov uk

Overview

 

You may be able to get free legal help if you can't afford it. Community Legal Advice offer this service through legal advisers and solicitors, specialist advice agencies and other public organisations.

 

There is a link for a legal aid calculator which will show if you are likely to be eligible for legal aid, or whether you would have to pay a contribution towards obtaining help.

well worth phoning some of these while you are waiting for a reply from the Probono application. Just to find out all your options.

[joghuj]

You need to keep positive, if your that negative now then we may as well just go home

 

I don't see myself as negative PT, far from it. The whole thing has made an impact on my personal and work life and you need to be realistic about pros and cons about challenging the court again I feel. The debt has now risen by £11K already in the last year.

 

I've not completely given up, I'll wait to see what the Probono guys say. No need for everyone to go home (seems a popular quote that one), I'm sure the work being done here in response to my case will no doubt help others and counter the scumm DCA's again.

[make them aktiv runners]

I am afraid I fell foul of this in a court as asked the OC to supply original for inspection (they had admitted they had destroyed it). They sent a Witness who swore on oath it was a true copy (it was a microfiche) and Judge accepted it without a murmur. In fact I beleive they can accept copies of originals under Civil Evidence Act (or some such) and as long as a company officer swears it's a true copy it will be deemed as such. It is highly dubious as there is lots of financial law which states it HAS to be the original and if the copy was made in 2001 and the company witness only joined in, say, 2004 how can they say with all honesty it is absolutely true in every respect?

 

Easy answer to that one, the witness must have been there at the time it was microfiched.

 

I agree microfiche and the more modern methods of retaining copies of originals are evidential in court. I would, however, probe a little further as to the exact originality of the copy. Where original documents are destroyed after having been copied to a smaller filing system the filing system must state clearly what is on it, each is a true copy, originals are destroyed after copying etc. There is nothing wrong in asking to see the original microfiche in court as that is the only way they can truely proof several pages of a document where in fact copied, otherwise there is no proof that they haven't added missing terms/conditions for example from another source. Where the full original document is copied it will clearly follow a run on the microfiche, for example if 3 pages long it will be 3 consective images on the microfiche itself.

Edited September 16, 2008 by make them aktiv runners
spelling

[joghuj]

OK folks, anyone care to chip in with advice again please...

 

Just spoken to a nice lady at Probono and she tells me that they cannot meet the deadline for appealing the case and cannot make a decision as to whether they will accept it or not yet. I asked them to hold on to the documents for the time being while I decide what to do.

 

By my estimate, I can appeal before the 24th of this month. Should I do this and then ask Probono to take a look at the case and work on it (bearing in mind they might still not accept). I presume once an appeal is filed then you can't withdraw it?

 

Shall I or shan't I?

[Rhia]

You can withdraw but I would check with the appeals court if this leaves you open for any costs.

[joghuj]

You can withdraw but I would check with the appeals court if this leaves you open for any costs.

 

OK. I'll check with them. Can anyone give me a quick rundown on what I need to do and where to get the appeal application and any other points I should know.

 

Cheers

[Vulture_Bank]

RE HODGSON / CABOT SOLICITORS

 

the solicitors regulation authority -- code of conduct rule 11

 

 

Litigation and advocacy

 

states " Introduction

Rule 11 imposes additional duties on you if you are a solicitor, an REL or an RFL whenever you exercise a right to conduct litigation or act as an advocate. "Court" in this rule has a wide meaning – see rule 24 (Interpretation). References to appearing or acting as an advocate apply when you are exercising rights of audience before any court, not just if you have been granted rights of audience in the higher courts. The rule only applies in a modified form to overseas practice – see 15.11.

 

Rule

 

11.01 Deceiving or misleading the court

 

• (1) You must never deceive or knowingly or recklessly mislead the court.
   
   
  (2) You must draw to the court's attention:
  
  • (a) relevant cases and statutory provisions;
    
  • (b) the contents of any document that has been filed in the proceedings where failure to draw it to the court's attention might result in the court being misled; and
    
  • © any procedural irregularity.
    

  [*](3) You must not construct facts supporting your client's case or draft any documents relating to any proceedings containing:

  • (a) any contention which you do not consider to be properly arguable; or
    
  • (b) any allegation of fraud unless you are instructed to do so and you have material which you reasonably believe establishes, on the face of it, a case of fraud. "
    

  [*]Solicitors Regulation Authority - Code of Conduct: Rule 11

if it were me if the above is deemed relevant i could contact the solicitors regulation authority

 

and in any court case present a copy of the section of halsbury regarding assignment

[Vulture_Bank]

on the subject of assignment here is an interesting paragraph

 

remember these words were said circa 1902 ??? slightly before the cc act 1974

 

 

" Legal assignment of an equitable chose:Although section 136 LPA 1925 appears to apply in terms only to legal things in action, it is thought that the use of the word "trustee" in the list of persons who may be liable in respect of the thing in action militates against a restrictive interpretation. There is also some case law to support the view that equitable things in action are included in its scope. In one of the leading cases (Torkington v Magee [1902] 2 KB 427 at 430-431), Channell J said:

"I think the words "debt or other legal chose in action" mean debt or right which the common law looks on as not assignable by reason of its being a chose in action, but which a Court of Equity deals with as being assignable". "

[joghuj]

Thanks for that.

 

Can anyone give me any details on the appeal process. Where do I appeal (local court), which forms etc..

[questioning]

Thanks for that.

 

Can anyone give me any details on the appeal process. Where do I appeal (local court), which forms etc..

 

Hi Joghuj,

If you go to About HMCS you can find this info.

The leaflet EX340 is here The requested resource (/HMCSCourtFinder/tiles/Her Majesty's Courts Service -Forms and Guidance) is not available which explains about appeals.

You have to fill out an appellants notice N161.

 

Have you got a copy of your judgment? You will need this to go with the rest of your doc's to aid your appeal. It comes at a cost of about £50. so I've read.

 

Time doesn't seem to be on your side.

I would ring the court as well as obtaining the info from their website.

The court will be able to help you understand the process.

Have you looked at other areas for help to conduct an appeal?

I realise you have applied to Probono but you obviously need answers to other questions that you have. IMHO I think yo need to get professional help asap. I mean no disrespect to CAG ( I Love CAG & think its brilliant) but I don't think you have the time to post questions and wait for replies about this any longer. You may be lucky and get the reply you need in time but you might not. You can't rely on CAG at the moment because you don't have the time. The info I've posted here I got from searching CAG.

Going by your last post I am assuming you have quite a few questions running through your head and I feel you need face to face conversation or by telephone at least. Once you have gained the answers you seek I'm sure you will start to get some clarity regarding your situation.

CAG can be a priceless asset to you but at the moment I think you should be looking in all other areas too.

 

You haven't posted as far as I can see any info that leads me to think you are trying to find all the possibilities that can help with an appeal, this is what has lead to my reply. My apologies if you have. (this kinda hi-lights what I'm trying to say about relying on cag,I don't know if you have or haven't) I have just posted my thoughts about what I would be doing if I was faced with the prospect of having to appeal a CCJ. I think you need to explore all options, asap and that includes continuing to use CAG among other things.

Edited September 19, 2008 by questioning

[Newborn]

Not a legal source but may help with regard to microfiche etc:

 

Document Scanning Scotland, Edinburgh, Glasgow, UK - DDSR Digital Document Scanning & Retrieval

[Vulture_Bank]

Not a legal source but may help with regard to microfiche etc:

 

Document Scanning Scotland, Edinburgh, Glasgow, UK - DDSR Digital Document Scanning & Retrieval

 

 

quoting from above

 

 

"The Civil Evidence Act (1995) introduces a flexible system whereby all documents and copy documents, including computer records, can be admitted as evidence in civil proceedings. A judge will still have to be persuaded to treat that evidence as reliable, therefore organisations will have to prove the authenticity and reliability of the record."

 

assuming the The Civil Evidence Act (1995) came into effect some time in 1996

 

the question is is this law retrospective ??

meaning if the agreement was dated 2004 it does not apply ??

Edited September 21, 2008 by Vulture_Bank
cccccccccccccc

[Suetonius]

quoting from above

 

 

"The Civil Evidence Act (1995) introduces a flexible system whereby all documents and copy documents, including computer records, can be admitted as evidence in civil proceedings. A judge will still have to be persuaded to treat that evidence as reliable, therefore organisations will have to prove the authenticity and reliability of the record."

 

assuming the The Civil Evidence Act (1995) came into effect some time in 1996

 

the question is is this law retrospective ??

meaning if the agreement was dated 2004 it does not apply ??

 

????

 

If something is retrospective, it means it applies to events before hand.... As 2004 is AFTER 1995/1996.... The question in relation to the act being retrospective is a little confusing...

Edited September 21, 2008 by Suetonius

[Richard Spud]

If I may offer comment in this matter; from my experience while the CPR and relevant PDs appear to be unequivocal in providing for original documents to be made available for inspection at the disclosure stage and at the hearing, in practice the defunct “Best Evidence” rule is no longer applied by the Courts in favour of copy documents being acceptable – however the weight of evidence given to copy documents (certified in writing as true and accurate copies) can be considered less than if the originals are produced. Should an actual witness take oath and give evidence as to the accuracy of a copy document - subject to cross – this will bolster the weight given the copy document.

 

Notwithstanding the above; I have known cases when the Court has ordered the original credit agreement to be lodged with the Court or the Claim will be struck out, when the DCA has been unable to provide legible T&Cs and at final trial when originals where produced by a Claimant bank without any T&Cs attached.

 

I would suggest that the disclosure stage is a great opportunity make or break a Claim – particularly against an Assignor DCA etc.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards - RS

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello RS!

 

Nice to see you back, followed some of your earlier Posts with interest.

 

I would suggest that the disclosure stage is a great opportunity make or break a Claim – particularly against an Assignor DCA etc.

 

The Thread below may be of interest here, to you and others.

 

Getting Them To Reveal Their Vitals. Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage

 

Any thoughts on a situation where only a crabby Application Form copy has been produced at via s78(1) Request and again via SAR, and then a better copy with a 2nd Page of what looks like Prescribed Terms appear in the Court POC?

 

Interested to hear if you think 31.14 can be used to question the validity of a new Application/Agreement that suddenly appears in the Particulars of Claim.

 

I think this is applicable to this Thread, otherwise, perhaps this can be discussed over on the above Thread?

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Vulture_Bank]

If I may offer comment in this matter; from my experience while the CPR and relevant PDs appear to be unequivocal in providing for original documents to be made available for inspection at the disclosure stage and at the hearing, in practice the defunct “Best Evidence” rule is no longer applied by the Courts in favour of copy documents being acceptable – however the weight of evidence given to copy documents (certified in writing as true and accurate copies) can be considered less than if the originals are produced. Should an actual witness take oath and give evidence as to the accuracy of a copy document - subject to cross – this will bolster the weight given the copy document.

 

Notwithstanding the above; I have known cases when the Court has ordered the original credit agreement to be lodged with the Court or the Claim will be struck out, when the DCA has been unable to provide legible T&Cs and at final trial when originals where produced by a Claimant bank without any T&Cs attached.

 

I would suggest that the disclosure stage is a great opportunity make or break a Claim – particularly against an Assignor DCA etc.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards - RS

 

Richard

can i develop a hypothetical situation from the above post imagine the copy agreement was dated say , (pushing the situation to the extreme) 1993, would i be correct in assuming that;

 

"Should an actual witness take oath and give evidence as to the accuracy of a copy document "

 

then that person must have been employed by the company in the relevant year 1993 in this case,,,,

 

consequently the defendant might have a right to demand proof of this fact ??? relating to the years of service ???