Taking Cabot to court for failing to supply HSBC CCA + Distress etc

[tbern123]

Nice letter, but they really need some training from you on how a letter should be written.

 

There understanding of the CCA is great and the lack of concern for the Data Protection Act is superb. How they can seriously say "Cabot UK have no information of yours" who reports the info to the CRAs

 

The fact that they have dumped 2 of the accounts but seam to think that they owe no compensation for the time they reported this, guess its down to the judge.

 

I like the last paragraph, did they ut in a counter claim?

 

What cheek you have "avoiding" paying the debt and asking them to prove you actually owe them anything.

 

ps who gave Cabot Financial Europe ltd permission to share your data with Hodsons?

 

Nope no counter claim, further more as this case relates to the HSBC account which they don't own anymore, so how can they demand payment and interest ??

 

Anyhow.. here are my initial thoughts... I will think more later

 

Thank you for your letter dated 18th February recieved via email addressed to Mr Ken Maynard and other members of staff.

(ok I admit it, I got a little carried away with the email addresses, but hey I guess I am famous at Cabot now)

 

We have now been instructed by our client company to respond to your latest communication.

(Well done, very carefully worded, but who is the client company ?)

 

Dealing firstly with your claim under reference 1465790, this is a pending litigation matter which is proceeding, as you point out, in Dartford County Court. We are currently awaiting directions from the Court as to the future conduct of that litigation. You have chosen to file a reply to the Defence as is your right. The case will ultimately be heard by the Court and all of the written material will be available to the judge when the case is finally listed for hearing. The proper and approriate forum for your "concerns" to be addressed is within the exisiting litigation following the making of appropriate directions by the Court.

(I thought that the Court would look favourable on any attempts to settle the matter before it reaches Court)

 

However, of the 3 accounts where were held by our client relating to you, they no have any interest in the Barclaycard or HSBC accounts, those having ben returned to the respective originators. Therefore, in relation to thse two accounts our client has no legal or beneficial interest in them and would not be in a position to enfore them or apply to enforce them in any event.

(Not until I started investigating. They were more than happy to phone and write to me demanding payment. To late to be acting innocent now)

 

The Bank of Scotalnd account remains in our client’s possession. In relation to that account the application form which constitutes the Agreement, together with account statements, were sent to you in November of last year. IN order to clarify the legal issues in this matter we have set out below our comments in relation to the relevant legislation which you have previously referred to.

(No terms and conditions received, and no statements explaining the balance of the account)

 

Where a creditor fails to provide information requested in accordance with s.77, 78 or 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 what teh Act does is to prevent the creditor from enforcing the Agreement until the creditor provides that information. The act states "the creditor is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the Agreement".

 

(Thank you for the quick legal lesson, but and there is a big but the CCA also states: if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.)

 

 

 

That does not mean that the debtor ceases to be liable to repay the debt in accordance with the terms of the Agreement, nor does it mean that tbe debtor’s failure to meet his or her obligations under the Agreement should no longer be recorded by the credit reference agencies. What it means is that, until the credit provides the information, the creditor cannot enforce the debt by issuing legal proceedings unless the Court otherwise directs.

(Thank you ever so much, but knew that all ready that is why I made a complaint)

 

Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited is contracted to act as an agent for cabot Financial (UK) Limited (formerly Kings Hill (No.1) Limited). Your subject access request sent to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited was passed to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited in order to process the request. We are instructed that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited does not hold any data to which your request relates. It will not have escaped your attention that the correspondence you have received from our client was from Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited and not Cabot Financial(UK) Limited or under its former name of Kings Hill (No.!) Limited.

(So Cabot Financial (UK) is the creditor and recorded a default on my credit file, yet does not have any information about me ??? Mmmmmm Ok, I will let the Information Commissioners Office look into that one. I never gave my permission for any information to be disclosed to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited)

 

Any damage that must have been suffered by the a debtor in order for him or her to received compensation under the Data Protection Act, must be actual pecuniary loss, where a debtor is refused credit by reason of adverse but accurate credit history, or where an accurate adverse credit history causes a lender to offer a loan at a higher rate of interest than it would offer to a person with a less adverse credit history, it is the adverse credit hisoty which causes any sich losses the debtor may suffer.

(THANK YOU !!!!!!!! This is exactly what I will claiming and will form the basis of my next claim. Kings Hill (No.1) Limited registered a default on my credit file, in relation to an improperly executed credit agreement. Taking that into account the default was not accurate and as such I have paid additional interest and I will be claiming compensation. THANK YOU FOR CONFIRMING MY RIGHTS !!!)

 

Creditors and debt adminsitration companies disclose information to credit reference agencies about debtor’s conduct of their accounts because that disclosure is necessary for the purpose of legitimate interests pursued by the creditors, the debt administration companies and the credit reference agencies. Credit reference agencies hold such data and disclose it to prospective lenders because that is similary necessary for the purposes of the same legitimate interests. Such disclosure and the maintainance of credit reference agency files plays an important role in enabling lenders to asses risk in propsed lending. The Data Protection Act permits disclosure of such information to and by those agencies with the debtors consent.

(Thank you for the bedtime story, but this has nothing to do with my complaint. I wonder, if they use standard paragraphs in their letters ?)

 

Accordingly, our client has no proposal to put to you for compensation on the basis that it has at all times acted properly and in full compliance with all legislation and industry guidelines.

(Don’t they read my letters and emails ???)

 

For the avoidance of doubt we are instructed that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited does not hold any data about you. It is Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited that holds data and therefore it will be that company which responds to any subject access requests directed to the Cabot Group.

(Thank you again for confirming that my data has been disclosed to and is being processed by Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited without my consent)

 

We are further instructed that our client is concerns by what it considers to be your attempt to avoid payment of a bona fide overdue debt for which iit will seek payment in full, together with interest and such costs as the Court shall deem recoverable.

(Erm ??? I hope this letter was written by one person ? Bearing in mind my current claim is in relation to the alledged HSBC account - "However, of the 3 accounts where were held by our client relating to you, they no have any interest in the Barclaycard or HSBC accounts, those having ben returned to the respective originators. Therefore, in relation to thse two accounts our client has no legal or beneficial interest in them and would not be in a position to enfore them or apply to enforce them in any event." So yet again they are demanding payment for a debt they don’t even own.)

 

 

Your faithfully

 

 

(Some squirbble)

Hodsons.

(no name, but as the reference is DSS, I am guessing this is from Mr Dean Spencer)

 

 

[tbern123]

Please excuse any spelling or punctuation mistakes, my scanner isn't working so I had to type it myself...

[Seahorse]

You should apply for a job with one of the DCA's. You make less mistakes than some of them, and they get paid for what they do.

[elizabeth1]

Tbern - seems like they are really grasping at straws with thet reply to you. Seems like they think you'll believe every last word of this letter?

 

Basically they've done wrong and admitted this and want you to think otherwise!!

 

Be interesting to see which guidelines they think they are acting within wouldn't it ? Seems they think they have a set of rules all to themselves?

[louiboy]

Your letters familiar.

Are they using a letter writing flow chart.

1. If YES go to 2, if No go to 3.

 

They think it not harassment to make 300 phone calls, stop and then apologise. Admitting a few more Data Protection Act offences then turn around and say the Consumer Credit Act has nothing to do with them. Quoting from legislation that's not stamped until 2008.

 

Post it in my thread later on.

[elizabeth1]

Your faithfully

 

(Some squirbble)

Hodsons.

(no name, but as the reference is DSS, I am guessing this is from Mr Dean Spencer)

 

 

 

 

Tbern the name is Dean Stephen Spencer

[tbern123]

Your faithfully

 

 

 

(Some squirbble)

Hodsons.

(no name, but as the reference is DSS, I am guessing this is from Mr Dean Spencer)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tbern the name is Dean Stephen Spencer

 

I wonder why he didn't put his name to the letter ????

[Seahorse]

I wonder how he'd get on if he ever needed to find a place to rent? Every ad I've seen for accomodation states, no DSS.

[elizabeth1]

I wonder why he didn't put his name to the letter ????

 

 

Probably far too busy filing more claims against people to be signing letters

[Rhia]

Tbern...they never cease to amaze me. They really just don't get this do they. It is very silly to try and dust you off as someone trying to avoid their debts. They just jump up, demand money (with menaces) and without paperwork. the when a few of their victims have the brass neck to question their legality and their dubious methods they start trotting out silly prepackaged mantras.

I guess it is the old case of if they say it long enough and often enough we'll believe it to be the truth.

Keep up this sterling work.

[tbern123]

Tbern...they never cease to amaze me. They really just don't get this do they. It is very silly to try and dust you off as someone trying to avoid their debts. They just jump up, demand money (with menaces) and without paperwork. the when a few of their victims have the brass neck to question their legality and their dubious methods they start trotting out silly prepackaged mantras.

I guess it is the old case of if they say it long enough and often enough we'll believe it to be the truth.

Keep up this sterling work.

 

Everytime they write to me, all they do is give me more ammunition and make me more determined to get justice

[InKogneeToh]

Hi tbern

 

Just some of my thoughts on Cabot's so 'professional' response:

 

The proper and approriate forum for your "concerns" to be addressed is within the exisiting litigation following the making of appropriate directions by the Court.

Wrong -as you say, all efforts should be made to avoid litigation or settle it as soon as possible!

 

The Bank of Scotalnd account remains in our client’s possession. In relation to that account the application form which constitutes the Agreement, together with account statements, were sent to you in November of last year.

Ah, but does it constitute a properly executed agreement Mr Spencer??

 

That does not mean that the debtor ceases to be liable to repay the debt in accordance with the terms of the Agreement

Mr Spencer, we're very disappointed in you! Have you not heard of the now famous cases of Wilson v FCT and Dimond v Lovell?

 

Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited is contracted to act as an agent for cabot Financial (UK) Limited (formerly Kings Hill (No.!) Limited). Your subject access request sent to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited was passed to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited in order to process the request. We are instructed that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited does not hold any data to which your request relates. It will not have escaped your attention that the correspondence you have received from our client was from Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited and not Cabot Financial(UK) Limited or under its former name of Kings Hill (No.!) Limited.

I bet he had to unravel his tongue after dictating that bit!

 

The Data Protection Act permits disclosure of such information to and by those agencies with the debtors consent.

Correct - WITH THE DEBTORS CONSENT!!!!

 

We are further instrructed that our client is concerns by what it considers to be your attempt to avoid payment of a bona fide overdue debt for which iit will seek payment in full, together with interest and such costs as the Court shall deem recoverable.

That tongue ravelling episode must have affected his thought processes, poor man!

 

 

 

Don't you think it is so very kind of them tbern to send you such gems to add to your files? I think we should all club together and send Mr Spencer a nice thank you card and perhaps a book voucher - he could put it towards an idiots guide to the CCA.

Regards, Pam

 

 

[elizabeth1]

Everytime they write to me, all they do is give me more ammunition and make me more determined to get justice

 

Tbern - you have worked really hard trying to get some decent answers from these companies - and they meet you with such irrespnsible replies where they clearly seem to be showing us they don't even understand the nature of their own businesses anymore!!

 

I wouldn't like to guess whether this is at a general level within these companies where the staff they have need better training and educating about the company they are employed within at the operative levels - or whether it is a cavalier attitude of the management and higher ranks within these companies. BUT clearly what has to realised within these companies is that "times have changed and will continue to change" and they will no longer be able to sail so close to the wind as they've previously done. I reckon these companies are going to have it tough as they aren't at all used to being challenged. But these companies also need to realise that they are going to be challenged - their days of "blagging" are over.

 

I had to laugh at the "DSS" squiggle on your letter - poor person is probably sat under his desk for fear of what is going to hit his fan next? He seen your letters? He surely knows something is going to fire back and he will need shelter ?

[Rhia]

Tbern with reference to the application form/agreement in Hodson's letter. I have copied this from elsewhere in the forum and it was sent to PeterBard and I am sure he won't mind me pasting it in here. It says quite clearly it is a breach of the CCA to pass off an application form as the agreement. It is from Ian McCartney MP and is the official position of the DTI.

 

 

Hi

 

Below is a copy of the letter sent from Ian

Mcartney after a arepresentation made by me to my MP, sorry about the delay in posting but I was awaiting my MP OK.

 

 

It is not complete as ihave removed refernce to certain issues not relavant to this thread. I have underlined some interesting points and have added some comments at the end.

 

 

dti

 

 

21 December 2006

 

 

Re consumer credit act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter of the 7th of December on behalf of your constituent Mr Peter Bardsley of******************* about a possible irregularity in the Consumer Credit act 1974.

 

 

The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations apply to all the situations that ate listed in the Schedule to the Regulations and this include Sections 77 and 78 of the Act, which are about copies of the executed agreement and not pre contractual information

 

 

The Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents Regulations are made under Section 180 of the Act ) power to prescribe the form etc of documents) and Section 180 enables Regulations to be made to provide for including/excluding certain information from copies sent out under the Act.

The Regulations apply to all copies sent our under the Act unless specifically excluded in the Regulations themselves.

 

 

Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and Conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form.

Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement**

 

 

If Mr Bardsley feels that the rules are being flouted he should report the companies concerned to Trading standards and the Office of Fair Trading.

It is also a breach of the Act and the Regulations to send the application form rather that a “true copy” of the Agreement.

 

On the point that Mr Bardsley makes about unscrupulous companies adjusting agreements, If there were a dispute about an agreement, the lender would need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had and agreement with the consumer to start with,

 

The lender should need to prove to a court that there was and agreement **

and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had an agreement with the consumer to start with. If the lender can’t prove the existence of the agreement, winning any court case would prove difficult.

 

 

 

Approved By the Minister and signed in His presence

 

 

Pp Ian Mc Cartney

 

 

 

**This confirms that the burden of proof is on the creditor to provide proof of the existance of an agreement and not on the debtor to prove it's none existance.

 

 

My response to this letter is posted earlier in the Consumer Credit thread.

 

 

Peter

[tbern123]

This is the only area I have concerns. can they really be this bad ? Why do they keep making such thundermental mistakes.

 

The defence they have filed, they say that they ask me to prove that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited in the creditor for the purpose of the CCA, then the same person writes to me and confirms it himself...

 

I will be sending a copy of this letter to the ICO, they have to investigate the statements made. I am also going to be sending a copy to the court. If I want to get their defence struck out, what do I have to do ?

 

(I wonder how many people from Cabot and Hodsons have viewed this thread tonight)

[tbern123]

thanx Rhia, really appreciate that

[tbern123]

Right I have just sent off a short email, to the person I have been dealing with at the ICO

 

Dear Mr Jones,

 

Further to my previous emails, I have now contacted Kings Hill (No.1) Limited (now called Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd) and Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited. As each company is registered as a data controller, I have made a Subject Access Request to both companies. I am sure you will share my disappointment with their response:

 

"Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited is contracted to act as an agent for cabot Financial (UK) Limited (formerly Kings Hill (No.1) Limited). Your subject access request sent to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited was passed to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited in order to process the request. We are instructed that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited does not hold any data to which your request relates. It will not have escaped your attention that the correspondence you have received from our client was from Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited and not Cabot Financial(UK) Limited or under its former name of Kings Hill (No.1) Limited."

 

they also say:

 

"For the avoidance of doubt we are instructed that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited does not hold any data about you. It is Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited that holds data and therefore it will be that company which responds to any subject access requests directed to the Cabot Group."

 

 

I would really appreciate your comments in relation to their response, especially as Cabot Financial (UK) Limited have been sharing data with Credit Reference Agencies. I am unable to understand how they can share data, they now say they don't have.

 

Further more, as confirmed in the ICO regulations. I would also appreciate your comments in relation to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited being the data controller for the entire group, as I am sure you will agree this is contrary to the ICO notification rules and regulations

 

Many Thanks

[tbern123]

Well, I did find something interesting today, contrary to what we have been previously told, Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd cannot be the Data Controller for the entire group.

 

3.1.1 Data controller name

 

Groups of companies

- Groups of companies cannot submit a single notification. Individual companies who are data controllers must notify separately.

 

3.2.2 Trading names

If you have a trading name or are known by any other names it is helpful to include it on your notification. This will assist individuals who wish to view specific entries but may not know your formal legal title. However, names of separate legal entities (eg limited companies) who are also data controllers should not be listed here. Separate legal entities must notify individually if they are data controllers.

 

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/forms/notification_handbook_-_complete_guide.pdf

 

 

 

Hodsons and Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited, please take note

[Rhia]

(I wonder how many people from Cabot and Hodsons have viewed this thread tonight)

Well if they are they will be getting a much needed masterclass in how shallow, muddled and ridiculous their reasoning is.

[Deepthroat]

YouTube - turning japanese the vapors

Sorry, had to be done!

(please don't spit your dummy for going off topic Tbern:grin: )

 

 

I personally feel that comments such as these are uncalled for. Especially when you consider all the hard work he has done and the help he has given us.

 

It seems epecially poor, when you consider that this is his thread. Instead of complaining about tbern123, may be people could be more constuctive with their posts and post some things to help..

[pmhcfc]

Well if they are they will be getting a much needed masterclass in how shallow, muddled and ridiculous their reasoning is.

 

I have another quote or two from Glen...

 

Second-hand debt

Crawford, Glen

Publication: Credit Management

Date: Sep 2005

 

Reputational risk will clearly be an issue raised by the credit organisations who sold the debt in the first place, but that was always an issue and I would suggest one that will easily be overcome by allowing the lenders to pre-agree a panel of permitted subpurchasers, just as is common now in relation to the use of third party agents by the primary debt buyers. After all, we buyers guard our own reputations jealously, and are perhaps even more concerned about reputational risk than the lenders. In a competitive market, a buyer with a bad reputation would find themselves unable to do business.

 

......Would it be a fair assumption to think that what he's saying is that Cabot would not want anyone to complain to the people who sell them the debt in the first place? Hmmm..Wonder how many of us had thought of complaining to the company (who sold the debt in the 1st place) about the particular DCA that bought the debt....Just a thought

[pmhcfc]

BTW...Tbern...Rock on man...We're all behind you...(waiting in the queue to take our turn)... I hope everything goes the way you deserve it to go...A bally hero mate, a bally hero.

[tbern123]

Thanks for your support.. All help is very much appreciated..

[Rhia]

I have gone back to the original lender and complained in this way and pointed out that they have a duty with regard to the DCAs they are involved with. No reply yet but will keep you posted. Suggest as many of you do the same as it will help build the case against them.

[InKogneeToh]

Thanks for the rep. tbern, although I don't know what I've done to deserve it!

 

Regards, Pam