Using the 'Which?' method

[londondulwich]

After some delay, today I received my backdated statements up until 2002 and then 10 summary sheets of the charges up until 2006. The delay was due to Lloyds losing a hand delivered letter.

 

I'm using the templates from the 'Which?' website and have hand delivered the first letter asking for the refund of the illegal overdraft charges, as a goodwill gesture on the behalf of Lloyds.

 

The amount is modest in comparison to some of the claims posted here, £630.

 

I used the 'Which?' templates for claiming back on a missold endowment mortgage and it worked. I will let you know when I hear something.

[londondulwich]

I have now recieved a reply from a 'David Just'

 

Mr Just states that because I was forewarned that exceeding my overdraft would incur an excess fee, and that I agreed to this, I have no grounds on which to complain. He says that the charges cover additional work caused by my 'excesses'.

He is therefore unable to agree with my request to refund the charges. He ends by advising me to forward my complaint to the Financial Ombudsman for independent arbitration.

 

Time for letter No. 2.

[Spiceskull]

Hi,

 

You seem to have it all in hand. Letter number two is definitely the way to go. The Ombudsman is NOT the way to go, at this point in time. Banks hope that you will take them at their word, and that the Ombudsman route sounds reasonable. That route leads to interminable delays...which you would be happy to bear AFTER they have given you YOUR money back.

Mr Just states that because I was forewarned that exceeding my overdraft would incur an excess fee, and that I agreed to this, I have no grounds on which to complain. He says that the charges cover additional work caused by my 'excesses'.

Yes, you agreed to that. However, you did NOT agree to them acting unlawfully, and the application of a penalty charge is unlawful. Your agreement with the bank implies that you would be liable for them to recover their costs (current estimate = £0.50/£2.50)

 

Good luck.

[londondulwich]

Hi,

 

Thanks for your support.

 

Does anyone know from what date the 8% interest should be calculated? Is it from the day that you write the first letter asking if they will refund their charges, or from the date threatening proceedings, or is it after sending the court summons?

[PrincessAphrodite]

The 8% is calculated from the date of the first charge.

 

"Is it from the day that you write the first letter asking if they will refund their charges" - *(there is no IF!! Its our money that we are rightfully claiming back!)*

[Spiceskull]

Does anyone know from what date the 8% interest should be calculated? Is it from the day that you write the first letter asking if they will refund their charges, or from the date threatening proceedings, or is it after sending the court summons?

For this you need the spreadsheet. It calculates the 8% for each and every charge up until the date you raise the claim.

 

In a nutshell, a charge of £25 from 6 years ago would earn something like £10 interest (8%) whilst a similar charge from last month might earn a couple of pence.

 

If you fill the spreadsheet in it will become apparent to you how the interest is calculated.

 

Good luck.

[londondulwich]

Wow, the 8% adds another £170. I suppose the charges could be likened to regular deposits in a high interest savings account. It seems a little too good to be true.

 

By the way, I've noticed law firms have started posting adverts with regards to bank charges, in the same way they do with endowment policies or personal injury claims.

 

Thank you for replying, it's much appreciated.

[Tinkerbelle]

Yeah, I've noticed someone on here touting for business

[alanfromderby]

Just to clarify, the 8% is only claimable if you have to issue a County Court action.

[londondulwich]

Today I recieved a second letter from Mr Just. Much shorter than the previous one, it states that he is sorry that I am unhappy with his response in the first letter. He goes on to say that he has nothing further to add and ends by recommending that I pursue my claim through the Financial Ombudsman service.

 

Time to visit money claim I think.

[londondulwich]

I'd appreciate some feedback on the 'particulars of claim', I've Frankensteined together from this website, the Which website and the bank charges hell website.

 

 

1. The Defendant is a high street bank. The Claimant has had with the Defendant a current account, number ********, sort code: ******, with a personal overdraft presently set at £1000, since 24 November 1992.

 

2. Between 27 April 2000 and 3 April 2006 the Defendant deducted various amounts in respect of: ‘unauthorised borrowing fees’/‘overdraft usage fees’/‘overdraft excess fees’. These were at first levied daily and later monthly, if the account debit balance exceeded the specified overdraft limit. (See attached schedule A).

 

3. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

4. The Claimant contends that the terms of the contract with respect to these charges are unfair and unlawful in light of the fact that:

 

I. They are punitive charges designed to penalise the Claimant for a breach of contract. That they unduly enrich the Defendant, which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to generating a profit. That under the law of penalties they are ‘extravagant’ and therefore unlawful.

 

II. They are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant and exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of the breach of contract on the part of the Claimant. It is averred that pursuant to paragraph 8 under schedule 2 (1)(e) of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), (‘a term is unfair if it requires any consumer who fails his/her obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation’) and under the Unfair Contract Terms Act (1977), in which it is stated that a trader can only include a clause in the contract requiring a consumer to indemnify him against any loss he may incur through negligence or breach of contract if he can show that the clause satisfies the test of reasonableness, that the charges which have been applied to the Claimant’s account are unfair and therefore unenforceable at law.

 

III. In the event that the charges are not a penalty, then they are unreasonable within the meaning of the Supply of Goods and Services Act (1982), s.15, which requires the supplier of a service to carry out that service for a reasonable charge.

IV. Under the law of mistake, the Claimant’s grounds for restitution are that the bank automatically debited the amount of the charge from the Claimant’s account and was not legally entitled to do so.

 

5. The Claimant will be relying on, inter alia, judgements made in the cases of:

 

Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. v. New Garages and Motor Co. 1915

Ford Motor Co. v. Armstrong 1915

Bridge v. Campbell 1962

Murray v. Leisureplay 2004

 

6. Accordingly the claimant claims from the Defendant a sum equivalent to £725 unlawfully debited to the Claimant’s account in the period 27 April 2000 to 3 April 2006. The sums are detailed in the attached schedule A.

 

7. The Claimant further claims interest pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum, from the dates that the debits were made to the Claimant’s account until 10 May 2006.

 

8. The Claimant further claims the court fee of £80.

 

9. I believe that the facts stated in these particulars of claim are true.

[Tinkerbelle]

Bit long innit?

[londondulwich]

I'd prefer not to be put in the position where I will be relying on something I've forgotten to mention, or something that is simply incorrect! Thanks for replying.

[londondulwich]

Yesterday I visited the Lambeth County Court and submitted my claim. It cost £80.

 

I didn't realise that I needed three copies of everything, but luckily they had a photocopying service.

 

I am expecting something in writing from the court within seven days and Lloyds should get back to me by the 25 of May.

 

I've told some friends about this and they quite interested, if I suceed I think they will give it a go too. I was surprised that they had never heard about it. I was wondering if other people had had the same reaction from friends and family.

[Guest Lueeze]

My family think im nuts, but then they always have! LOL!

 

Its just typical Britishness, thinking that we must somehow be in the wrong, and it couldnt possibly be the banks fault! Once they get on this website, they realise what I have been trying to tell them all along!

[londondulwich]

Well it does seem incredible. Collusion to nationwide fraud by all the high street banks. On the continent the charges are tiny in comparison.

[londondulwich]

I've read on this forum that a number of verbal and written slips/admissions have been made by Lloyds staff.

 

Is there a place I can locate these?

 

Aside from the McNamara interview I'm a little thin on the ground for contradicting the 'these are not penalties, but service charges' defence.

 

Any help is appreciated.

[sallysc343]

Hi, to an untrained eye they seem to cover what's needed. Could I possibly use them if/when LTSB take me that far? ( obviously with my own details in).

 

Sally

[londondulwich]

Hi,

 

Please feel free to use whatever you think is helpful. I think you are referring to the 'particulars of claim'. But I'm not sure.

 

If you will be submitting an online claim, my attempt will be too long. I put mine together knowing that I'd hand it in in person at my local County Court. (I wanted to have a clear idea of where it is situated and what it's like inside).

[londondulwich]

p.s. I reworked the version I posted. If it is the part. of claim you were thinking of, I can post the final version I submitted.

[londondulwich]

Lloyds have filed an acknowledgement of claim with the County court. This now gives them until the 16 June to file a defence.

 

I wonder if Lloyds are paying their solicitiors per letter, as would be the norm. If they are this must be costing them £10,000s.

 

Having said that I am unsure how much a defence prepared by a solicitor costs. Does £200 sound normal?

 

Has anyone been to a solicitor for a quote on what the fees would be?

[downsouth]

p.s. I reworked the version I posted. If it is the part. of claim you were thinking of, I can post the final version I submitted.

 

Yes please! looking forward to seeing how far they go with your nice&clear claim.

[londondulwich]

Hi, This is the final version I submitted. I tried to post it as an attachment but I couldn't get it to work. Hope it is useful.

 

1. The Defendant is a high street bank. The Claimant has had with the Defendant a current account, number ????????, sort code: ??????, with a personal overdraft presently set at £????, since 24 November 1992.

 

2. Between 27 April 2000 and 3 April 2006 the Defendant deducted various amounts in respect of: ‘unauthorised borrowing fees’/‘overdraft usage fees’/‘overdraft excess fees’. These were at first levied daily and later monthly, if the account debit balance exceeded the specified overdraft limit. (See attached schedule A).

 

3. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

4. The Claimant contends that the terms of the contract with respect to these charges are unfair, unreasonable and unenforceable at law in light of the fact that:

 

I. They are punitive charges designed to penalise the Claimant for a breach of contract. That they unduly enrich the Defendant, which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to generating a profit. That under the law of penalties they are ‘extravagant’ and therefore unlawful.

 

II. They are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant and exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of the breach of contract on the part of the Claimant. It is averred that the charges which have been applied to the Claimant’s account are unfair pursuant to paragraph 8 under schedule 2 (1(e) of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999)–

 

‘…terms which may be regarded as unfair…have the effect of- requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation;’

 

And under the Unfair Contract Terms Act (1977) s.4 -

 

‘A person dealing as consumer cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness’.

 

III. In the event that the charges are not a penalty, then they are unreasonable within the meaning of the Supply of Goods and Services Act (1982), s.15 -

 

‘Where, under a contract for the supply of a service, the consideration for the service is not determined by the contract, left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined by the course of dealing between the parties, there is an implied term that the party contracting with the supplier will pay a reasonable charge.’

 

IV. Under the law of mistake, the Claimant’s grounds for restitution are that the bank automatically debited the amount of the charge from the Claimant’s account and was not legally entitled to do so.

 

5. The Claimant will be relying on, inter alia, judgements made in the cases of:

 

Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. v. New Garages and Motor Co. 1915

Ford Motor Co. v. Armstrong 1915

Bridge v. Campbell 1962

Murray v. Leisureplay 2004

 

6. Accordingly the claimant claims from the Defendant a sum equivalent to £725 unlawfully debited to the Claimant’s account in the period 27 April 2000 to 3 April 2006. The sums are detailed in the attached schedule.

 

7. The Claimant further claims interest pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum, from the dates that the debits were made to the Claimant’s account until 11 May 2006, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at a daily rate of 0.022%.

 

8. The Claimant further claims the court fee of £80.

 

9. I believe that the facts stated in these particulars of claim are true.

 

 

 

 

Your Name

[londondulwich]

Today I recieved confirmation from the County Court that my Allocation questionaire has been processed. Lloyds have still not put theirs in, although the deadline was last Friday.

 

If they are still dragging their feet by this Friday I'll see what the court can do about it.

[thunderpuss2k]

Today I recieved confirmation from the County Court that my Allocation questionaire has been processed. Lloyds have still not put theirs in, although the deadline was last Friday.

 

If they are still dragging their feet by this Friday I'll see what the court can do about it.

 

Maybe you could ask for the judge to make an order, something along the lines of Lloyds have so far failed to meet the AQ deadline, so it is ordered that they serve the AQ on the court by xxx date. Failure to do so will result in the court issuing a judgement in favour of the claimant.

 

Or something like that.