Money demands from someone who didnt perform the work,consumer rights?

[BankFodder]

I'm trying to get my head around the story but I understand that you employed someone to install gates and their task was to supply and fit.

You paid various sums in advance. At some point early on they walked off the job and you are out of pocket. Not only that, the suppliers of the equipment which was bought by your installer have not been paid for and though suppliers after you as well.

I still have to read through it and fully understand it – but does that sum it up?

Secondly, what is the name of the installer that you employed? Also what is the name or company of the people who are after you for payment of the parts?

[BankFodder]

Frankly would be helpful if you could be a little more brief – less narrative. We don't need to hear the whole life story.

Could you tell us the address of this electrical company and if they have a website maybe you can provide a link.

I'm still trying to get my head round it. It would help if you express things a little more succinctly.

In my earlier post I told you that I understood that you are being pursued by the suppliers of the parts. You haven't commented on this. So please tell me is this correct? Or is the only dispute with KR electricals.

Also, what is the name of the person you've been dealing with?

[BankFodder]

Thanks. That's much easier to digest – but you say he is a limited company. He must be using an address. What is his company registration number?

I should say straightaway that I'm afraid that the price that he decided to charge you for the parts is something that you will have to put up with. That was the agreed price – the money that you agree to pay the fact that he has clearly made a big profit from them I'm afraid is something that you signed up for. So there is no basis for any legal complaint on that.

On the other hand, clearly you had a contract to supply and install a certain piece of equipment and he has breach that contract by not supplying it.

Sometimes a contract is "severable" in other words you might reasonably be able to divide the contract into constituent parts and so you might be able to say that a certain part of the contract should be paid for and a certain part of it is outstanding.

In this case, it seems to me to be a non-severable contract. Not only that, you have been deprived of the entire benefit of the contract and so he is in fundamental breach and this allows you to treat the contract is terminated.

This means that you would be entitled to recover all of your money plus any additional expenses incurred removing his work or repairing shoddy work that he has carried out. When eventually calculating the amount that you would be entitled to claim, you would have to deduct any benefit that you have had. So if there are parts that were supplied then you might have to make an allowance for those, but may be at a reasonable price rather than the amount that he charged.

For instance, I believe that you said that he supplied faulty motors. If the motors were repairable then you would be able to claim for the repairs that he might have to be given some credit for the value of the basic material he had supplied.
Please let me know if I haven't explained this clearly.

I think what we need to know now is, better details as to who he is, where he is – details of his company. And also, how much you are out of pocket.

Your losses should be listed in terms of the money that you have paid out to him, any losses incurred in addition in order to undo or to repair his shoddy work.

And then you should examine any benefit you might have had if any of the work he carried out was usable or add some value.

I understand from you that the job is now been finished by some other installer stop is this correct?

[BankFodder]

Okay, on the basis of how you have explained the contract, he was apparently purchasing the parts on your behalf so from that point of view I think it is reasonable to say that the contract was for you to become the purchaser at the sale value – not his markup.

If you have this contract in writing, please could you put it up here in PDF format.

You have now told us that it is not a limited ability company – although you did say that at the outset.

Please can you tell us the name of the person that you have been dealing with. Is it a one-man band? A partnership? Where you dealing with the trader himself or some employees?

Have you got any idea where he lives or have you any idea of any assets that he my own?

Getting a judgement against this person will be very straightforward. The problem is always is a question of enforcement. There is a possibility that you could bring an action and fork out the claim fee, the hearing fee and an execution fee and then find that the warrant can't be executed so that you end up with nothing – not even the return of your claim fee.

So for this reason, when planning a claim against anybody it's important not only to prepare your case but also to do forward planning so that you can identify exactly how you will enforce the judgement.

 

 

Incidentally, how were the parts sourced? Are you able to identify the seller of the parts? For instance, was the circuit board faulty right from the beginning – assuming that it was new – and if so, who supplied it because there may be a claim there.

It might be easier to claim from established retailers and at least reduce the value of the claim that you are going to make against KR electricals

[BankFodder]

Well it's up to you of course but it seems to me that you are seriously out of pocket and that you should claim the money back.

It seems to me that you may well be nervous of this guy – and frankly you shouldn't be. It seems to me that he is dominating you and that probably encourages him in his approach to you.

If you really do simply wanted to go away then thing to do is to send him an email and tell him that you won't be paying any money and you won't have any further involvement and if he wants to he can sue you.

If he does of course then we will help you.

However, on the basis of what you say it seems to me that a judgement is absolutely straightforward. If you want it to stop hassling you then the best thing to do would be to get a judgement and then if you really don't want to enforce it, let him know that if he carries on that you will send the sheriff's round to his home and they will start removing stuff.

At the moment you don't really have any other leverage other than "leave me alone…". Not very convincing to a bully.

I suggest that you put up a copy of the agreement. Also you should start doing everything by email. Stop using texts, it's not formal enough and it is too intrusive in your personal life. However, save all the text that you have received and the once you have sent and I suggest that you print them out.

It seems to me on the basis of what you have just said, that there is no more advice we can give you until you decide whether you want to take action.

[BankFodder]

I hope you realise that debt collectors can't be instructed without a court order. This means that he would have to begin a court action against you, makers claim, allow you to make your defence, go to court, get a judgement against you, and then instruct bailiffs or sheriffs.

He doesn't know what he's talking about and it's a load of bluff.

The best thing you could do would be to sue him so that he understands how it's done – and I guarantee you he won't like it.

The second best thing you could do would be to tell him to go and do the other thing.

It sounds as if he's got you into a panic and he is leveraging it. Start a claim. It would be very easy and quite frankly your claim is so slamdunk that it will even be fun and you will acquire some transferable skills so that you can then confidently go on to sue anybody else who gets in your way.
What's not to like?

 

[BankFodder]

I'm sorry but I have only been on the sidelines for the past few weeks and that is probably going to continue for a while.

However I'm trying to have this again and having come back to it and refresh myself I can see that the story is still a mess.

But by and large you entered into a contract with somebody who was trading as KR electrcial services ltd  to install some electric gates.
The deal was that he would install the gates for the cost of the parts plus £1000.
He told you that the parts would cost you £2300 and you paid that money to him.
After a very short time – just a few hours, he walked off the job and the job was left mainly unfinished.
You then had to get somebody else in and that cost you £600 plus also another £250 to replace some parts which did not work.
You are now being threatened by the installer KR electrcial services ltd for payment of about £800 because he says that 80% of the work was completed.

You are unable to deal with the installer because of his aggressive approach and you feel intimidated by him.
Instead you have been dealing with the retailer of the parts who have now withdrawn from the problem because it is getting too complicated.

Your electrical gates don't work.

If there's anything wrong in this summary then please let me know.

I see that my site team colleague has flagged up the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999. If that statute does apply to you then I'm afraid it only applies in respect of the parts which have been supplied and nothing to do with the installation fee or the quality of the installation.
As I understand that there is a question mark over only the circuit board, then if there is any liability from the retailer it would be only in respect of that.
That means that the rest of the problem is really between you and the installer KR electrcial services ltd.

 

I don't know if you are aware but KR electrcial services ltd has been struck off and is no longer in existence so afraid that if your contract was with this company then you no longer have any way of attacking them for a refund of your money.

Frankly it's not clear as to whether your contract was with the limited liability company or simply the installer trading as that name and not limited.

This is very important to know and I don't think we can move forward until you tell us exactly who your contract was with.

Also we have asked you in the past and you haven't responded – what is the name of the person you are dealing with. I think it's important to know that. You say that he has an address but earlier on for some reason other you said that you don't want to sue him but you haven't explained why.

You should understand that if you are prepared to take an action against this person directly – assuming that we can establish that this was not a contract with a limited liability company then we may as well pack up and go home.

Your problems is to be fairly simple but it is stalling and losing its way and if you want to pick this up and send the best chance of getting your money back then I think we need to start dealing with this very closely

[BankFodder]

So I understand that the faulty motor is being collected for a goodwill repair.

If that happens, does that put you in a position where it you feel that you want to let it go and get on with things?

If you decided that you wanted to sue KR electrical then we would help you and if you know the address of the owner's property then it would be very easy matter to win this case and then to enforce the judgement if you wanted.
Don't forget, if you wanted you could simply win the case and then you would not be obliged to enforce the judgement if you didn't want to.

 

[BankFodder]

By the way, you say that you have received threats. Have these threats been made in writing?

[BankFodder]

Thank you. If you have all those threats in writing and the police are involved, then I don't really expect that he would dare to cause you any further problems if you decided to sue him.

It sounds to me as if you are out of pocket by a substantial amount in addition to all the stress and hassle. Has he actually started putting up negative reviews about your business or is that simply a threat?

If he is carrying out a campaign of harassment against you then we can help you take action on that to protect yourself, your business and any family.

It would be very helpful if you could email me some of the threats that you have received and also any messages from the police to our admin email address. This would be received in complete confidence so you will need to worry – but it would be helpful for us to see it.

[BankFodder]

But no response to my post of September 8 – over a month ago

[BankFodder]

Please could you post the entire claim form – in a good quality scanned condition – single file multipage PDF.

Please could you present them to us in the way that you would like someone else to present them to you.

Also, on 8 September you talked about receiving threats and I suggested that you email them to me but you haven't done.

[BankFodder]

Yes but we would like it properly scanned please in a single file with the entire document right from the beginning and not simply the extracts that you have published in two separate files.

Thanks

[BankFodder]

Thank you.

Firstly, you don't need to start worrying about the fact that he hasn't mentioned a particular statute law legislation. It's quite sufficient that he is referred to an agreement and given a broad idea as to what the agreement is about and that he hasn't been paid.

The first thing you should do is you should file an acknowledgement with an intention to defend. That will extend the time for filing a defence from 14 days to 28 days.

Do that straightaway and confirm that it's been done.

Secondly, I suggest that you extract the text from his claim and put it into a two column Microsoft Word document. Put his text in the left-hand column and try to divide it into its paragraphs – point by point.

Each point or paragraph should occupy one row in the left-hand column. Opposite each row and effectively addressing each point made, please put in your own comments.
When that's done post it here

[BankFodder]

No I would hold off if I were you.

I think you are going at it too quickly. You should start off sending the acknowledgement and then we will work things out afterwards.

Apart from anything else, in your defence you are not identifying the important points in the claim and merely addressing those. You are launching into narrative which is not relevant and makes it more difficult for anybody including the court – and including me to understand.

You are attempting to adopt some kind of professional style but I'm sorry to say that it comes over as strutting and unnecessary. You are litigant in person and you have a certain licence and you should try to profit from that by keeping things simple.

Are you a limited liability company?

Why have you redacted the name of the person who is suing you? Are you trying to protect them? 

[BankFodder]

I don't think that rushing anything off will particularly accelerate any process.
It would certainly have been easier if you had presented your commentary in the tabulated form that I asked.

I'm afraid that we do everything here for free and there are many people to help and we try to do what we can when we can.

You should certainly send the acknowledgement straightaway but I think that your defence and counterclaim can be much better than they are.

[BankFodder]

Also, I asked you if you are suing as a company – but you haven't answered. I also asked you about the threats and if you would send them to me in confidence by email – and you didn't deal with that either.

It really would help if you would respond to these questions even if to say that you prefer not to say

[BankFodder]

Sorry but we haven't received anything. Would you mind trying again – to our admin email address.

[BankFodder]

It will be helpful if you would answered very simply the following points in his claim:

1. he quoted for certain work
2. you agreed to the work
3. you paid a deposit
4. he discovered that the required gate was unusual
5. you didn't want underground motors
6. he searched for an alternative solution and capture inform
7. he kept to the agreed price
8. he worked for two full days and with two men
9. he chased the drive out
10. he laid all cables
11. he attached Arnesen motors in place
12. obliged to postpone because of rain
13. you asked for VAT receipts
14. he said that he had bought the material in his own business name
15. you have now suggested that he is trying to avoid certain costs or taxes
16. he says that you knew every part that he was using
17. he says that he kept you informed because you are constantly asking questions
18. he says he was having personal issues and so he told you to find someone else
19. after that he asked for reasonable part payment for work carried out
20. you told him that he hadn't fulfilled the contract
21. he agreed to come back and you accepted
22. his date for returning to the work was not acceptable to you
23. you said that you are going to do the work yourself
24. you are capable of finishing what was yet to do

please could you do this in the tabulated form I've already suggested and which you decline to do so far.
Please can you answer each point shortly without a load of narrative

 

[BankFodder]

I'm sorry but if you won't present it in a tabular form as I've asked, then I'll close the thread.
We try to give you the best help you can it seems to me at the moment a lot of effort is being spent simply getting you to address questions or to present documents clearly or to cooperate with us in understanding your case clearly and arranging your defence and counterclaim in the most effective way.

If you were paying £300 an hour for this advice I expect that you would comply PDQ.


I understand that you are probably busy – but maybe should understand that we are as well. We have our work commitments, and family commitments in addition to being constantly on-call giving free help to people on this forum.

[BankFodder]

I've received the email thank you

[BankFodder]

I'm not asking you to mind read – but I am asking you to go back to the post which I made about nine hours ago which is probably post number 32 where I asked you to present information in a tabular form and even described how to do it.

[BankFodder]

I've looked through the email threats that you sent me. Although they are unpleasant, I think that they amount merely to insults and an aggressive posture and I'm afraid I don't think that anybody would consider that it was worth acting on in the way of threats.

I suppose it shows a certain attitude but I don't think it does anything more than that.

I hope you are going to produce the tabulated commentary that I asked and then we can go forward and draft a defence and also discuss your counterclaim

[BankFodder]

Obviously very sorry about your grandfather. Was it Covid related? Must be very difficult.

I'm afraid that the courts don't hang around with deadlines – and looking at the temperament of your adversary, I don't expect it will cut any ice there so when you can get round to it, we will get a move on

[BankFodder]

90% works completed although £1000 due because he didn’t let us carry out work	£1000 was the total labour element on his estimate, he estimated 3-4days work. 90% was not done   he with brother attended (have dated photo) 29/04 for about 5 hours and 30/04 about 4 hours-never came back after that- he told us to get someone else (in writing and in his claim point 5)	What was the total cost of the job? Why did he and his brother walk off the job? Has he been told about the existence of this photo?
quoted works and costumer agreed and paid deposit,	He made us pay £100 just to visit our home- we reluctantly paid (text evidence)   Sent an ‘estimate’ £3165 (confirmed only an estimate in texts) we have texts saying too high, what are our other options, he said he would look for other part providers- never did supply other options in the end, just said ‘looked around nothing cheaper’   In the end said can you make it cheaper and do £3000 cash- he said yes,   We asked could we have a receipt etc if cash and warranty- he said would NOT give us a receipt for cash but warranty covered (all in texts)   He said we had to pay for all materials up front, this was not a deposit, he told us to give him £2165 cash for all materials. So only labour left to pay at end	Hundred pounds for the visit is not relevant.     Is this estimate of £3165 the price of the whole job? Or simply the price of the parts?           Was this a verbal agreement?     Was that a written warranty? Do you have any evidence that he said that there would be no receipt for a cash payment   is any of this arrangement in respect of the purchase of materials in writing? In particular, is there any evidence that you were actually the purchaser of the materials rather than him?
Came across problems with unusual gate opening size and customer didn’t want underground motors, we searched and searched and kept customer informed	Nothing unusual. It’s a large gate opening, catered for by all gate manufacturers,   No searching and searching-just needed articulated arm system, this conversation of requirements was only about 4-5  texts         Yes didn’t want underground motors as too much water falls in that area and would be more expensive and intrusive-part of the above conversation in texts	So you agree to this?       So are you saying that an articulated arm system is quite normal?
We kept to our agreed price, even though many more hours spent on job	No price was agreed at the point the conversations above were happening with what system we required, all text messages before any estimate sent, No hours spent, just a visit , some texts and an estimate, he made us pay £100 for!	Presumably a price was agreed otherwise they wouldn’t have started work.   I think you need to stop obsessing about this hundred pounds for the visit. It seems that you agreed to this and he did carry out the visit. I don’t think there is any mileage here
Works started and started well, 2 full days with two men, chased drive out and laid all cables, attached arms and motors in place	Messaged him on day (have text) to start as was a no show on 28/04 to say its because its raining he’ll start tomorrow   Didn’t turn up until approx. 10.30 next day 29/04 with brother (photo taken at 13.39pm) shows three cables on floor and 2 inch channel- only , reflecting not much work done- also left about 3, when I did school run, he wasn’t there when I returned as I remember, no further works done   Turned up late again about 10.30 Friday 30/04 Continued attaching motor brackets and articulated arms on gates, sensor on gate posts Left about 1-30 2pm saying ‘well it is a Friday’ See you Monday, have witnesses who were fitting our bifolds that day   Never came back	So he didn’t turn up on the first day because it was raining. Is this unreasonable?   Had there been an agreement that he would turn up earlier than this time? I take the point that these are not “full days”
Rain fell heavily on third day so postponed	when he didn’t show up Monday , asked where he was said, he was missing parts and had to order them, first we heard of any missing parts, he told us nothing and just didn’t show up	This is plausible but of course it is reasonable for you to have expected him to let you know in advance.
Moved jobs about causing a headache to get the job done asap	Not our problem, he walked off telling us nothing and didn’t show on third day, so if his other jobs were affected I don’t care he left us high and dry with no information.	I agree
Client demanded vat receipts from my suppliers so he could claim back, i said its in my name and business so not possible, now im being accused of hiding stuff eg cost etc, either way he accepted my quote	Text evidence before estimate given states we want materials plus labour quote, and vat receipts for the materials , he said ok   While waiting for ‘missing parts’ and he was away from job we asked for these receipts for the parts he made us give him money for   He refused, despite it being a requirement in writing   We didn’t accept quote, he sent as per his texts and ‘estimate’ , we said too high, can we do £3000 cash- he in writing agreed yes In a text	Can we see copies of these text messages please.                           Can we see a copy of this text please
Due to above we fell out , I was having personal issues and I said find someone else	Yes – he wouldn’t give us receipts of parts and said im not coming back you don’t trust me Just pay for what ive done   We said no, the system isn’t installed, don’t have parts etc that’s a breach of contract to walk out   We said don’t be silly , just get in with the job But He never showed up again,   He also sent text saying, just have those few hours for free  then after we quoted breach of contract	Is there any of the work which is usable? In other words is it possible to get somebody else to complete the job and how much would it cost?       I don’t think that could be taken as being binding on him
Soon after 1-2 days I asked for reasonable part payment for works carried out, he said I haven’t fulfilled my contract, so I agreed to come back and he accepted,	No-asked for 80%, but not installed missing parts, days to go etc   Yes told him he breached contract walking off and saying never coming back   he reluctantly said fine ill come back we asked for a date in  a text dated 17/05	Have you got any evidence of this?
But as my date given was a few weeks away, he refused and said they don’t feel confident having me back,	The date to return he gave in text was 07/06 so six weeks after starting job and nearly three weeks after we asked   We felt we couldn’t wait another three weeks for him not to show up due to repeated texts saying will never come back and previous two attempts for his attendance ending in no shows   We also text saying that’s too long as heavy gates pinned back by a tarmac bag are a danger to us and public     Plus his attitude , we didn’t want him near house	Can we see a copy of this text please                     Can we see a copy of this text please
Yet no other reason brought up along the way, no issues	Yes – dangerous gates pinned back Missing parts, gate stops, emergency stops etc Repeated no shows Misinformation Broken circuit boards, sensors etc he provided Faulty motors still at manufacturers	Can we have a list of these missing items and costs of supplying them.   Have you contacted the manufacturers and what have they said
No real reason other than they wanted to try and get the work done quicker, or have the current works done for free	No- its been 6 months and still have no working gates ! despite paying other electrical company  £600 for 5 days work, and another friend doing ones days work for free   Now been quoted another £500 by specialist gate company to help us to finish	Do you have evidence of this £600 expenditure?           Do you have a copy of this quote?
As he said he was going to do himself before I contracted him	Why would we seek out company to install if we were going to do ourselves
So I suspect as I had done most of it, dean would now finish the easy but avoid paying me	Hasn’t done most of it Paid a lot of money to other people to try and install, no avoidance of paying money to anyone
Also not replying, if not paid before go to court and will add £25 a week	Of course I didn’t reply- hes a mad lunatic, who had no claim so wasn’t concerned £25 a week under what terms ?- none	Don’t worry about this. There is no basis for it