Do I have to make payments on a voluntary charge - HFC cc debt

[AndyOrch]

Not sure thats quite correct DX

 

Have you actually looked a your deeds and checked the wording of this Charge and how it registered against your property ?

Just to confirm there has been no court involvement or judgment at all with regards to this debt...that you simply agreed to a voluntary legal charge to secure the debt to the creditor?

 

Regards

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

Thanks....

 

 

So if you look at the CH1 at point 8 it refers to payment arrangements and as stated you may enter into a payment schedule as may be agreed...but as it stands the charge is purley there to secure the debt.

 

It may be worthwhile doing a DSAR request to get all the data with regards to the CCJ  and if in fact it was set a side.

It may also be worthwhile actually considering a payment plan (an affordable manageable amount ) to keep them at bay as it is possible that they could go for an order of sale should they become impatient.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

Marlin Europe are now Mortimers clients in which the letters refers to.Its quiet easily changed on the register to the new legal owners of the debt.

 

Couple of further questions for clarity .....

 

Has the main mortgage been cleared now or are you still paying ?

Is there any equity in the property if there is still an outstanding mortgage ?

Have you never made any payments to this debt since the VC was placed ?

If not and there is no judgment in place the debt could possibly be statute barred now without a judgment.

[AndyOrch]

No...but hold off until you get all the information on this possible CCJ and set a side

[AndyOrch]

You dont need a Judgment to agree a  voluntary charge.

 

We already have the exact wording ..see attachment

[AndyOrch]

Only if there is a CCJ...hence the DSAR to see if any CCJ was issued and or set a side.

 

Charging Orders have no connection to statute of limitations.

[AndyOrch]

  Have a look  

[AndyOrch]

And no point checking credit registers or the CCJ Trust Files as its over 6 years and would have vanished.

[AndyOrch]

Very much so....at the set a side date....the clock started to tick again on the debt with regards to statute of limitations...so the debt that the VC is secured against is now statute barred.

 

Now to the VC ..not quite as simple ..

 

Once a Charging Order is granted, a record of this will be held at HM Land Registry for 12 years, although this can be removed at the discretion of the creditor once the order has been settled in full. 

 

An equitable charge is not extinguished after expiry of the limitation period in s. 20(1) of the Limitation Act 1980. Section 17 of that Act has no application,

 

https://www.mortgagefinancegazette.com/features/clarity-on-charging-orders-07-01-2009/

 

 HFC Bank Limited was liquidated  28 Feb 2013 

http://www.hfcbank.co.uk/

 

So the copy of the CH1 you uploaded was provided by Weightmans.....you need to go Direct to the LR and request a copy of your deeds and check the precise wording of the charge and also if they submitted form AP1 with their CH1.

 

Andy

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Thats why I asked you to get the latest wording from the lR ...how its worded on your deeds.....the CH1 is only the form used to enter it.

[AndyOrch]

Well as stated its hard to remove the Charge unless the claimant agrees to which they wont.....but they are probably not aware that they shot themselves in the foot by setting a side the judgment and relying on the charge to secure the debt.There is no judgment...the debt is statute barred now....as the set a side stated the clock ticking again with regards to limitation.

 

So where do we go well if you dont intend moving forget it...if you do ever move contest the charge for the reasons stated......having no Judgment anchored to the Charge is tantamount to having a car with no engine. 

 

They have to prove the debt to collect on the charge.

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

OK - so I do not need to pay anything back as per their demands. No

Should I write them a statute barred notice if they start to demand it or perhaps threaten me with court? No dont prod the bear ignore them

Presumably they can't take me to court now or force the sale if the debt is statute barred?  Correct...but let see what transpires

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

1 hour ago, blue_eyes777 said:

OK - do I need to worry if they threaten court if I don;'t pay anything?

So following my offer of £20, I will just now ignore any future communication. Is that a wise idea? 

 

Do you wish to make payments against a debt thats statue barred ...?  Your choice

 

Say for arguments sake they wish to force sale.....in their application they have to detail the debt and details of the charge.They cant rely on the normal reason......defendant didnt pay the judgment...there is no judgment....defendant wont pay the debt.....debt is statute barred.

 

See where this is going.?

[AndyOrch]

Lets wait and see if they do make any further threats and if so what they are.Its no use worrying about matters that are yet to unfold.

[AndyOrch]

Then why not contact Registry Trust and ask if a judgment was ever placed/removed ?  Then we know for definite and can advise accordingly.

[AndyOrch]

https://www.trustonline.org.uk/

[AndyOrch]

Well yes and no...if its over 6 years it will have fell off...but you can ring and ask for history.

[AndyOrch]

But only if Trust confirm that it was set a side. 

[AndyOrch]

Check the set a side first then we can see the legal position

[AndyOrch]

I suppose you could check with MCOL Northampton if you still have the claim number..long shot but worth a call?

 

I dont doubt that it was set a side and cant see the claimant not fulfilling the agreement you made.

[AndyOrch]

" surely Weightmans would have threatened me with something if they had a CCJ and I was ignoring them?  "

 

Not necessarily as they had the VC to secure the debt...so no need to chase you for payment.Anyway given that nobody has any records now its really irrelevant because you have the document stating they would set a side if you agreed to a VC...which you did.

[AndyOrch]

Thats what I would do..and have been telling you for the last week

 

If in the future you decide to move and they ask for their money...you simply reply what debt ...its now statute barred as you set a side the judgment and restarted the Statute of limitations. 

[AndyOrch]

Just running through your thread back to  2009 did you ever get a copy of the CCA ?

 

Also you said you were still paying the mortgage....is your property joint owned and this debt was in your name only or joint debt ?

[AndyOrch]

Okay thanks....

 

In response to your post #79.

 

"but the colleague I spoke to briefly -  now seems to think that MC could still take me to court and enforce the charging order before the 12 years expires and then after this time enforce it against me."

 

So firstly 12 years does not come into this its not a mortgage its an unsecured credit card debt which was secured by way of a voluntary charge.Therefore with regards to limitations its 6 years.

 

" She felt that the charging order means that the debt cannot be statute barred even though the CCJ may have been set aside! "

 

A Charge has no bearing on a debt with regards to limitations apart as a means to secure it...but there is no expiry of a charge.

 

 " If the debtor is being cooperative, for example agreeing a repayment schedule, it may be preferable to agree a voluntary charge on the debtor’s property. This can easily be achieved using form CH1 (available from the Land Registry website) and avoids the time and expense of court proceedings. Be aware that the registration of the voluntary charge may require the consent of existing charge holders "

 

Do you know if permission was sought with your Mortgage providers ?

 

Im thinking out of the box here because yours is a very peculiar situation and not the norm......there is no Judgment CCJ to secure

 

Interesting reading.....

 

https://www.i-m-a.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/ima-ljdoc-195 17.pdf

 

http://www.legalmortgage.co.uk/limitation/4532753368

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/58/section/15

 

 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Yes this is the problem and confusion as when you try to get information on secured loans/Charging Orders...which yous now is because of the VC...it naturally assumes that its a mortgage.

 

Now a mortgage or secured loan does not require a judgment to be able to force sale.......but the debt in question which the Charge secures is now statute barred by over 4 years.

 

Now the next quark.....because there are no records or documentation in connection to this debt nobody really knows what type of debt it actually was...so thinking outside of the box again it could be that section 15/17 of the Statute Of Limitations could come into play....

 

But then again they may never request an order for forced sale but if they did what documents could they produce to support the claim....to execute a charging order you have to corroborate the debt connected.......or normally disclose the Notice of Judgment..claim number judgment date etc......there isn't one.