Debtor jailed for 15 months for threatening a bailiff with a knife.

[Bailiff Advice]

The following news story appeared on SCOOP last night and involves a bailiff from JBW Group.

 

 

 

A judge told Birmingham Crown Court that he feared the public would think him "mad" to not send the 32-year-old to prison

A violent dad who refused to pay a parking ticket has been jailed after he threatened to stab a fines officer when the penalty spiralled to £400.

 

Robert Hunter was sentenced to 15 months after threatening Craig Fishwick with a kitchen knife when he called to his home on Yarnfield Road, Tyseley.

 

A jury convicted the 32-year-old at Birmingham Crown Court after hearing he told Mr Fishwick: "You're not taking my f ****** car, I'll stab you."

 

Jailing the dad for threatening a person with a bladed article, Judge Roderick Henderson said: "The public would think I was mad if I did not send to prison immediately someone who behaves like this."

 

Hunter received the fine last year, but left the fee unpaid, the Birmingham Mail reports.

 

Mr Fishwick, a collections officer with 20 years experience, went to Hunter's home with a bill for £400 on July 16, but received no answer when he knocked the door.

 

He pushed a note through Hunter's door and later received an aggressive call on his mobile. When Mr Fishwick returned, Hunter opened his front door holding the knife and threatened the fine collector, making a 'stabbing motion' and lunging forward.

But Mr Fishwick said Hunter never got closer than four feet away from him.

 

Judge Henderson said: "You got a parking ticket and you neglected to deal with it, I suspect. "Lots of us have been irritated by parking tickets. "While there was some impulsiveness in what you did, you knew what it was about, you knew you were stuck with the fine.

 

"You chose to go to the door with a knife." The judge went on: "If you had connected you might have caused very serious injuries. "The reason the courts and public get so wound up about knives is because they cause devastating injuries and can kill someone."

 

The court heard Hunter had a previous conviction for criminal damage and possession of an offensive weapon from 2009.

In that incident he smashed the window of a bus with an extendable baton after a passenger gave him a dirty look for parking in a bus stop.

 

Martin Liddiard, defending, said since that incident Hunter had become a dad-of-two and was settled down and working.

He said: "It was spur of the moment and reactive. It was very short-lived."

 

 

http://www.scoop.it/t/lacef-news

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/youre-not-taking-f-car-5799147

[citizenB]

Looks like he might need some anger management courses as well !

[Bailiff Advice]

The problem with cases that come to court is that Judges do seem to take issue if a debt has not been paid. ( "You got a parking ticket and you neglected to pay it')

 

A very tough sentence which no doubt had been made worse given the debtors previous conviction.

[unclebulgaria67]

Given that it costs over £40k to keep someone in prison for a year, I am not sure this sentence is right when you hear of repeat offenders for such things as burglary being given suspended sentences. Someone I knew committed suicide after being burgled, as it was the last straw, after a run of bad events in their life.

 

This sentence is higher because of the previous offence history and that the person threatened was an EA. if the victim had not been an EA, they would probably not have been sent to prison. The courts do appear to see EA'S as part of the establishment that are to be protected.

[Bailiff Advice]

The courts do appear to see EA'S as part of the establishment that are to be protected.

 

They certainly do and this has been the case for a very long time. Courts seem to take the view that bailiffs have a tough job collecting government debts and that the debtor is the 'bad guy'.

[unclebulgaria67]

They certainly do and this has been the case for a very long time. Courts seem to take the view that bailiffs have a tough job collecting government debts and that the debtor is the 'bad guy'.

I don't think all EA'S should receive special protection, as that harks back to the courts mainly serving the 'state'. The courts are supposed to be independent of 'state', with Judges excercising their powers in a fair/balanced way.

 

I agree with special protection for Police, but that is different. Also the EA'S who show authority of a court in their actions should also be entitled to the same protections. As I have said before, those EA'S acting directly for a court to collect fines should be totally separate from other EA'S and they should act in a way that enables the debtor to see they are to be respected.

[wonkeydonkey]

"Hunter received the fine last year, but left the fee unpaid, the Birmingham Mail reports"

That suggests the fine was paid and the bailiff was attending to collect fees due. If my interpretation is correct (and I am happy to be corrected) it once again confirms the advice being peddled elsewhere suggesting 'a bailiff cannot enforce for his fees' needs to be taken with caution.

[Peterbard]

I think the sentence is to light, irrespective of the fact that it was a bailiff, one person comes at anther with a knife should go down for a long stretch IMO. It was obviously premeditated, too much knife crime at the moment. He got 15 months so he will probably actually serve six or seven.

[Bailiff Advice]

"Hunter received the fine last year, but left the fee unpaid, the Birmingham Mail reports"

That suggests the fine was paid and the bailiff was attending to collect fees due. If my interpretation is correct (and I am happy to be corrected) it once again confirms the advice being peddled elsewhere suggesting 'a bailiff cannot enforce for his fees' needs to be taken with caution.

 

I did see that WD but I think that the reference to 'fee' is probably the ticket and bailiff fees because on the date that the bailiff visited he was seeking payment of £400 (and not £310).

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

The problem with cases that come to court is that Judges do seem to take issue if a debt has not been paid. ( "You got a parking ticket and you neglected to pay it')

 

A very tough sentence which no doubt had been made worse given the debtors previous conviction.

 

WHAT! 15 Months is a tough sentence for threatening to stab someone?

What would be an acceptable sentence should he have threatened to stab you?

Or would you be happy with just a couple of weeks, even though he has threatened to kill you or at least Stab you?

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Given that it costs over £40k to keep someone in prison for a year, I am not sure this sentence is right when you hear of repeat offenders for such things as burglary being given suspended sentences. Someone I knew committed suicide after being burgled, as it was the last straw, after a run of bad events in their life.

 

This sentence is higher because of the previous offence history and that the person threatened was an EA. if the victim had not been an EA, they would probably not have been sent to prison. The courts do appear to see EA'S as part of the establishment that are to be protected.

 

Utter crap. Regardless of what you think, behind closed doors we are often told it will be dealt with lightly as this kind of thing goes hand in hand with the job we do and "supposedly" we are paid well to do it. I can assure you we are not treated specially by the courts.

I suggest you google knife crime sentences. This isn't so light for a second offence.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

I think the sentence is to light, irrespective of the fact that it was a bailiff, one person comes at anther with a knife should go down for a long stretch IMO. It was obviously premeditated, too much knife crime at the moment. He got 15 months so he will probably actually serve six or seven.

 

Agreed, this need to be substantially tougher, not just on debtor vs bailiff knife crime, but knife crime in general.

[mikeymack2002]

A worrying story this, if you take the law as it stands, anyone that uses a knife in public which is what this story is about, are being sent a clear message that the use of knives are not to be tolerated, the fact it was an EA is even more disturbing, they are trained to deal with violent situations, this is why the wear stab vests.

 

 

The use of this story is also a clear message to the public in general that no matter whom pulls a knife and for what reason then they will expect the full weight of the law. Knife crime is prolific and the Police service is there to respond to any threat regarding a knife in public. All you need to see are the Police statistics' from the Met to show you all just how bad this really is. Why do members of the public feel the need to carry or use knives is very disturbing. I fully agree with this sentence and hope it shows everyone this type of behaviour will be dealt with in the most firm way the Courts can use.

 

 

The defendant is lucky more serious charges were not laid to him. Before everyone takes the time to have a serious go at me for this response please consider the argument before you do. All offences against the person are serious and really need the decision of the bench/Judge to be the harshest and to show what could happen in the future.

 

 

As far as not paying what was due the debtor could easily enough said I am not paying and take it up with the bench in a better format than they chose.....

[Bailiff Advice]

Excellent comments from all (including Grumpy !!)

[Bailiff Advice]

WHAT! 15 Months is a tough sentence for threatening to stab someone?

What would be an acceptable sentence should he have threatened to stab you?

Or would you be happy with just a couple of weeks, even though he has threatened to kill you or at least Stab you?

 

In fact my PERSONAL opinion is that this is a light sentence but I had based my comment upon reading the following which states that with knife crime, only one if five cases result in a custodial sentence.

 

https://fullfact.org/crime/knife_possession_convicted_prison_sentences-32073

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

In fact my PERSONAL opinion is that this is a light sentence but I had based my comment upon reading the following which states that with knife crime, only one if five cases result in a custodial sentence.

 

https://fullfact.org/crime/knife_possession_convicted_prison_sentences-32073

 

Point taken. That is some shocking statistics.

[Coughdrop]

Quite an interesting read about the breakdown of sentencing in the attached pdf from the MOJ. It's a shame I couldn't find a more recent one than the first quarter of last year.

 

If anyone draws a knife on another person, personally I'd like to see a custodial sentence straight away.

[mikeymack2002]

Here is a Met Police report dated the 15/04/2015 see attachment. Please bear in mind this document is for London only and for one month

[brassnecked]

WHAT! 15 Months is a tough sentence for threatening to stab someone?

What would be an acceptable sentence should he have threatened to stab you?

Or would you be happy with just a couple of weeks, even though he has threatened to kill you or at least Stab you?

Should go to jail whether threatening EA or a member of the public, in fact jail for threatening anyone. So should an EA go to jail if they assault a debtor, works both ways.

 

Now those hypothetical 12 year olds who soak the EA with Super Soakers who was trying to take their TV and X Box from their bedroom as the EA says it is their mothers, should plod feel their collars?

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Fully agreed. An EA that assaults a debtor should be jailed for a long time, and I have never said otherwise.

Where have your heard about a twelve year old soaking an EA? What would you do if that twelve year old soaked you as you were walking down the street or shopping in tesco?

 

We cant take consoles etc from kids bedrooms anyway. Random spurious examples like this are a waste of time.

[brassnecked]

Fully agreed. An EA that assaults a debtor should be jailed for a long time, and I have never said otherwise.

Where have your heard about a twelve year old soaking an EA? What would you do if that twelve year old soaked you as you were walking down the street or shopping in tesco?

 

We cant take consoles etc from kids bedrooms anyway. Random spurious examples like this are a waste of time.

 

 

We know that you can't take the kids X Box, but less scrupulous EAs most certainly threaten to do so, so an angered kid is dangerous those metal Thomas Tank Engine toys hurt if they hit you when thrown at a person .

 

The kid soaking bailiff is an old chestnut, I have seen it happen a few years ago, think they were Excel bailiffs possibly. it also is a good scenario for a law exam, exploring assault. as is exploring the nature of criminal damage caused by a 10 year old girl chalking hopscotch squares on a pavement who was threatened with arrest ( really happened)

[caledfwlch]

In my Opinion, just possession of a Knife, even if you have not threatened anyone, but the weapon comes to light in a random Police stop should be hit with a severe sentence. Something like 3 or 4 years Custodial.

 

If you are carrying a knife, that means you are ready and willing to use it, you wouldn't be carrying it otherwise. As Dodgy Dave Courtney, the gangster turned media lovey said in his biography, "Only carry the weapon your prepared to do the time for"

[unclebulgaria67]

What if you are going fishing or any activity where you may need to carry a knife ?

 

The homeowner in this case could have been chopping onions and taken it to the door without realising.

 

There has to be room for explanations to be given and if you make the law too prescriptive, you could be sending to prison people who had not really committed an offence. Remember that the courts are full enough as it is and as soon as you have a sentence over 12 months I think, it has to go to Crown Court. We don't want to get to the situation where there is quick justice carried out by Magistrates in most cases, where you are almost seen as guilty until you prove innocence.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

We know that you can't take the kids X Box, but less scrupulous EAs most certainly threaten to do so, so an angered kid is dangerous those metal Thomas Tank Engine toys hurt if they hit you when thrown at a person .

 

The kid soaking bailiff is an old chestnut, I have seen it happen a few years ago, think they were Excel bailiffs possibly. it also is a good scenario for a law exam, exploring assault. as is exploring the nature of criminal damage caused by a 10 year old girl chalking hopscotch squares on a pavement who was threatened with arrest ( really happened)

 

I remember hearing about the girl chalking the pavement. But I believe she was doing it outside peoples houses and they kept treading it in and she didn't stop even after being asked to. Difficult situation.

And I have had all manner of things thrown at me over the years including children's toys. Just not by the children themselves.

 

It is a difficult situation. Should the powers that be let a 10 year off without punishment for violence? What example does that set? But at the same time, how do you punish, or indeed should you punish, a ten year old for being scared and lashing out.

[brassnecked]

I remember hearing about the girl chalking the pavement. But I believe she was doing it outside peoples houses and they kept treading it in and she didn't stop even after being asked to. Difficult situation.

And I have had all manner of things thrown at me over the years including children's toys. Just not by the children themselves.

 

It is a difficult situation. Should the powers that be let a 10 year off without punishment for violence? What example does that set? But at the same time, how do you punish, or indeed should you punish, a ten year old for being scared and lashing out.

How it is now, with our police service if the 10 year old chucked the Thomas at an EA they would be taken away by police and put in a cell to await a Social Worker probably, with a view to prosecution for assault.