Two UKPC parking charges for resident parked in own parking bay **Cancelled**

[Hypo]

Hi all,

 

First of all many thanks for the forum and work done for others - I've already started to read through the PoFA 2012 and other forum posts in detail (phew!) Anyway, on to my situation, and apologies in advance for so many words.

 

I live in a gated property that is managed by UKPC and I'm a tenant in a property there. I've just received 2 Keeper notices for the car being parked without displaying a valid permit, and on consecutive days (a Saturday and Sunday) in January this year. Each is for £100, total £200.

 

The parking bay itself is allocated to my flat and I do have a valid UKPC permit for the car, but often leave it unattended for long periods, and might not notice either that I've forgotten to place the permit there, or see any drivers notice. I've had a look at the photographs taken by UKPC and can see that a drivers notice was attached to the windscreen. Needless to say neither was there when I next went to the car (indeed the second day's photos shows that the first notice has gone).

 

The same car has been parked in the same bay with the permit displayed, and though while that means the permit has been accepted by UKPC in the past/recently, suspect it would not have any more relevance than that.

 

I'm also still checking the details under section 7 and 8 on the paperwork, I suspect that many of the companies are tightening up their practices. I'll keep on going in this area.

 

 

At the moment though I can see that no harm has been made against the land owner, the landlord of my property, or the tenant (me!), and no-one else has been deprived of a parking space. UKPC have been placed there by the property management company.

 

So the charges look to be punitive (£200), and I'm going to be down that path as well as linking the permit to the car in a letter back to UKPC. I'm no where near the POPLA stage yet so happy to keep this softer.

 

Funnily enough they don't mention this is in the "discounted phase", yet state that if this goes to POPLA then the parking charge will increase. The only part that appears to show the increase is "late payment", adding £60. I don't think they can do this under PoFA 2012, as a dispute would not be a late payment.

 

The keeper address for the car is still at a different address, and so they are now at the Keeper stage rather than the driver stage of the process.

 

Needless to say I had a shock when two letters were opened! Once again sorry for making this so long winded, and any thoughts well received.

 

Cheers

[f16]

The "contract" you have with your Landlord over rides their "contract"

 

You say "It is a gated access".

 

Is there a sign at the entrance. .... Readable from the drivers seat of your car ??

[Hypo]

Hi F16 - thanks for the lightening response and you've given me more to think about, as well as jogging the grey cells.

 

Another wall of text from me I'm afraid.

 

The "signage" at the left of the entrance states "Private land. Permit holders only, see notices in car park for conditions", and is readable from the drivers seat. There are several notices within the parking area as well (around 40 bays). I haven't spotted anything inappropriate there yet, but happy to attach pictures if needed.

 

Regarding the tenancy agreement I've notified the landlord (via the letting agency) of the introduction of UKPC and that the permit is added to the register of Landlord's assets for the flat. As the UKPC involvement was introduced part they way through the tenancy so there is no specific mention of UKPC in the contract obviously. Anything binding on the Landlord that applies to me has to be provided before the tenancy is under-way.

 

When UKPC was introduced back in September there were letters addressed to "the residents" from the property management company (PMC). There was a claim of an insert from UKPC but none was initially provided, and after approaching the PMC one was provided as the "complaint" flow chart. I have the email trail for this. This flow chart does include consideration for a permit holder as part of the UKPC appeals process. So I'm hopeful on that front now as well.

 

Just in case of any doubt, the property management company is not the same as the letting agency.

 

 

So I'll summarise the points that I'm looking to put into the letter:

 

1) Tenant at the property address, provide permit details

2) Link car to me as a resident, even though keeper address is elsewhere

3) Notifications of the introduction of UKPC to the Landlord have been made, per tenants obligations

4) Landlord has not placed any obligations on me regarding UKPC, other than treating the permit as an asset.

5) PMC provided a flow chart of the complaints process after email request, it includes consideration of a permit.

6) Charges would be punitive as there is no harm that can be shown.

 

Also - I've got two of these notices. Should it come to a POPLA appeal, I'm assuming I'll need to open two cases?

 

Many thanks again, the calmer grey cells are now stepping in!

 

Cheers.

[fkofilee]

Maybe im missing something here, Why not write to them and tell them that you are a resident and you do have a permit and it is youre parking bay?!?

 

Mind you im not so clued up on these Parking issueS...

[SabreSheep]

points to understand and use

 

No locus standi

Penalty is not a genuine preestimate of loss and therefore an unenformceable penalty

Yes, appeal for each ticker

[Hypo]

Hi Fkofilee and SabreSheep,

 

Yep - I'm coming round to that as being the way forward now that the initial shock is wearing off.

 

Having posted here and looked through the details has helped me understand much more clearly where I stand. Bouncing it off of the more experienced has helped immensely, more so than the letters that are sent ever could.

 

Cheers,

[armadillo71]

 

The "signage" at the left of the entrance states "Private land. Permit holders only, see notices in car park for conditions", and is readable from the drivers seat. There are several notices within the parking area as well (around 40 bays). I haven't spotted anything inappropriate there yet, but happy to attach pictures if needed.

 

.

 

What were you looking for that was inappropriate?

 

Post up pictures of the signage please.

[JoeyJoeC]

Why does it matter for the signage?

 

They suffered no loss, he has the right to the parking space, that will win the appeal to POPLA alone.

[ericsbrother]

Is the parking space part of the lease or freehold of the property you are a tenant in? If yes then it is YOUR space and nothing to do with UKPC. as already stated, you have supremacy of contract and the parking permit is an administrative convenience so the managing agents can cause bother to people from outside for parking improperly, not to cause you bother for not displaying a piece of paper.

Wait for UKPC to send you a NTK and then respond by telling them that it is your space and that you have not given them permission to go anywhere near it and thet they are to desist from their trespassing otherwise you will sue them for trespass and harassment.

Parking companies have bene successfully taken to court for this before so dont think it a hollow threat, just make sure they know that you dont appreciate their activities.

[Hypo]

Many thanks for all the further replies and comments - just back from work and attaching pictures. The reason for looking at the signage in detail is that when something like this happens I do want to look at it closely and from as many angles as possible (rather than specifically having something in mind to look for its a case of "know it if I find anything").

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]56059[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]56058[/ATTACH]

 

I'll be going down the route of establishing that I am permitted to use the space - cheers.

 

Edit - pictures haven't attached too well, will try again...

Edited February 16, 2015 by Hypo

[fkofilee]

Upload in PNG

[Hypo]

Got it - jpeg works up to 1200 as well, that's good enough

[ericsbrother]

brilliant!!! the sign is not a contract, it is an invitation to treat at best and meaningless graffiti at worst.

I could go into great detail as to why it isnt a contract but basically there isnt anything for you to consider and either accept or reject. What terms and conditions?

UKPC at their best.

[Hypo]

Thank you all kindly again for comments, I've now submitted my appeal on both counts. It turns out that the web form was broken in that it would not accept more than one document as an attachment (despite having an "add more" button).

 

Will let you know how it progresses...

[Hypo]

Well I thought the matter had come to a close and I could move on, however things have gone further than I had hoped.

 

In the end a third notice arrived as well, and after the appeal to all three UKPC returned with an offer of £15. At this point I was ready to take it to POPLA and contacted my landlord to confirm I had the parking space (I do). The property management company became involved and agreed to have the notices waived with UKPC on my behalf, and so I thought that all was well and would have no more to do (have an email trail for this conversation).

 

It now looks like at least one of the notices has been passed to Debt Recovery Plus Ltd (DRP). I'm trying to unpick the mistake with the property management company (have written to them), and have written a holding letter to DRP (stating the issue had been resolved and shouldn't be with them - enclosing the email trail with the property management).

 

Still more comfortable about holding out on this one... will be interesting to see where it goes next.

[fkofilee]

If it goes to court, youd be covered

Dont worry, , It probably wont get that far but its not the point here. Keep everything in writing...

IF need be send it to POPLA

[Hypo]

Thanks fkofilee - I do keep good records when things like this happen. Much more relaxed about it this time (thanks to the efforts of regulars on this site).

 

Cheers!

[DragonFly1967]

Oh, don't worry about Doubt Recovery, they can't do a thing bar write you increasingly desperate letters, the last of which will be a reduced payment offer before they 'recommend to their client' court action blah blah blah.

 

Think of DR+ as the proverbial "Chocolate fireguard" and you won't go far wrong.

[JoeyJoeC]

Upload in PNG

 

I know this is an older post, but don't use PNG for images. PNG is a format for images with few colours where loss of quality is important.

 

Digital camera images should always be in JPG.

[ericsbrother]

Debt recovery plus are a company that parking co's use when there is no hope whatsoever of collecting anything themselves.

Dont forget the main thing, you have an absolute righ to park twhere you did and no-one can say any different, not a parking co, not the management co and certainly not a bunch of people whose office is a portacbin in a pub car park. SDont waste your time writing to these clowns, make thwem waste money contacting you and then ignore anything that isnt a stamped N1

UKPC just dont like it that they are wrong and wrong again so they try and coerce people into paying up out of fear- a letter head marked DEBT makes it sound scary but there is no debt.

[Hypo]

Well that didn't take long.

 

I now have a confirmation email from UKPC that all three have been properly and fully cancelled.

 

Result!

 

Thank you all for the supporting words and advice, it has helped me understand this area in much greater detail and though I hope not to have to put the knowledge into practice, it has already opened colleagues eyes as I've talked about it with family, friends and work.

 

And a tip in the tip jar so you guys can keep on helping others.

 

Cheers!