Blackhorse SAR Response Confusing

[Escritor2013]

DX suggested I create separate threads for two PPI claims - this is the first for Blackhorse.

 

I received a response to my SAR within a week of sending the SAR.

 

I can't really work out what I'm seeing in the documents PDF attached. I've tried to be very careful to remove all identifying stuff from the documents before uploading.

 

It seems I took out a HP Agreement for a car and PPI was added and that I paid this for 9 months and then the HP agreement was converted into a standard loan with Blackhorse / Lloyds.

 

I'd be grateful if anyone who understands these agreements can take a look - there are some alarming figures. For example, the original price of the car was £14995. I paid a deposit of £4100 and with PPI, charges for credit etc the price was back up over £20k

 

I'm not even sure this loan was properly constructed. It's all paid off now but I want to make sure if there is anything I should be claiming, in addition to the PPI in the first 9 months that I'm not missing something.

 

The statements in the attached PDF do not show the first payments but they were made. I think I seem to have paid 62 payments instead of 60.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

[ims21]

Hi

 

I have had a look at the documents and all seems to be in order to me as far as the maths side of things go.

 

On the loan there was only one penalty fee of £25 so very small in the scheme of things.

 

This appears to be two distinct agreements. One is for the HP which was paid for 9 months (although there does seem to have been a one month refund). That refund may have been due to timing differences between them working out a rebate etc. and the closing of the account.

 

It seems you then took out a loan over 54 months to settle the HP agreement. I don't know the circumstances of this but it certainly reduced the monthly repayments.

 

As far as the PPI claim goes, what are the reasons you believe it was mis-sold please?

[Escritor2013]

Thanks IMS21 for looking at this.

 

On the original HP agreement the PPI was just added by the Car Craft rep

and I was told to sign the agreement if I wanted the car

- PPI wasn't even mentioned or pointed out to me

- stupid of me now I look back on it.

 

It was also not appropriate for me because I worked in a permanent job in the public sector

at the time and would have received full pay for 6 months

+ and at least half pay for another 6 months after that if I'd been ill.

 

I questioned the scale of the loan overall in July 2003 - hence they issued a new loan.

 

The figures on the original loan were

 

£14995 minus £4100 deposit leaving a balance of £10895

- when I questioned why it was then going to cost me over £20,000 to pay the £10895

that's when they issued the new loan to replace the original agreement.

 

What I can't work out, although the new loan agreement is virtually blank,

is whether any PPI or residual PPI was ever rolled into the new loan

- I don't think it was but couldn't be sure.

 

If that is the case I'm not sure if I should be reclaiming anything on this? (Perhaps 9 months of PPI payments?)

 

Thanks again - really appreciated.

[ims21]

Ok thanks.

 

So from the way you describe it, CarCraft told you it was a condition of the finance that you had to have PPI otherwise no deal.

 

If that is the case then the PPI was mis-sold.

 

As it was CarCraft that sold the PPI then your claim for mis-selling will be against them.

 

From the calculations I have done, the rebate figure quoted is only for the front loaded interest at the time of settlement. I can't seem to work it so that the rebate figure includes a rebate for the PPI part which would have been unused.

 

If it were me I would be contacting BH to see if you can find out what amount (if any) was rebated for the PPI. Alternatively is there anything in the SAR paperwork which gives more information on the rebate figure?

 

Even if there was a rebate of PPI it is highly likely that it would not have been the correct amount.

 

Either way, the new loan would have been paying off some or all of the PPI which was included in the original HP agreement. As a result you will have been paying for PPI through the second account.

 

Please have a read of No.1 in my signature and you will see what I am talking about.

 

What were the mechanics of taking out the second loan? By that I mean did you approach Black Horse about it? CarCraft were not involved in that negotiation I assume?

[Escritor2013]

Thanks ims21 - this is quite complicated but I thought it best to try and reply to your specific points in turn

 

Ok thanks.

 

So from the way you describe it, CarCraft told you it was a condition of the finance that you had to have PPI otherwise no deal.

Yes - this was 10 mins before they closed, on a Sunday and I was told take it or leave it if you want the car i.e. the whole loan agreement - no mention of the PPI - I was just told to 'sign here'.

 

If that is the case then the PPI was mis-sold.

I think so - I also had a pre-existing medical condition at the time which they didn't ask about because they didn't actually mention PPI

 

As it was CarCraft that sold the PPI then your claim for mis-selling will be against them.

I was unsure about that

- apart from the initial trip to Car Craft all dealings were with Blackhorse, including the original loan / HP agreement.

In fact the Carcraft rep did say at the beginning the Finance is with Blackhorse and that's who you deal with

- he handed me a glossy booklet from Blackhorse.

 

From the calculations I have done, the rebate figure quoted is only for the front loaded interest at the time of settlement.

I can't seem to work it so that the rebate figure includes a rebate for the PPI part which would have been unused.

 

This is the bit I was struggling with.

From what I can see on the original agreement (HP agreement) the breakdown is as follows

- I'm going through from the beginning so I can try and make sense of the change to the loan

and how they might have calculated the rebate -

 

1. Amount of credit = £10,895.00

2. Charges and fees = £5799.40

3. The total above had an APR of 19.8% - the total of 1 & 2 above is £16,694.40

4. For some reason they then added the amount I'd paid as deposit in cash £4,100 to the cost of the credit

- erroneously

- (on the PDF in #1 above they've added A+B+C together -

A = Credit amount of £10,895,

B = Charges and fees of £5799.40 and

C = the deposit I'd already paid of £4,100.00)

- how I didn't spot this is beyond me.

So they've charged me for the cash I had already paid them!!

So instead of a total of £16,694.40 above

they added my deposit to give a total loan amount of £20,794.40

5. To this they added PPI single premium of £2314.40 and added a charge for this 'credit' of £1179.06

6. The APR on the PPI single premium and charge for credit on the single premium (£3493.20 - i.e. £2314.40 + £1179.06)

was 19.1%

- another observation is that they didn't even add these figures together correctly, the total should be £3493.46)

7. PPI payments were £58.22 per month from what I can see.

8. It gets tricky when I see their rebate

- at the time that they replaced this loan / HP agreement with the second loan and the change in interest rate APR.

9. I'd made 9 x monthly payments of £335.46 which included the £58.22 monthly PPI payment.

At this point, with the replacement loan, they refunded one month payment so this gives a total of 8 months x £335.46 = £2683.68

including 8 x £58.22 = £465.76

10. The total rebate on the loan seems to be £6,039.89 but this figure isn't broken down.

 

From all of the above I think the original loan was completely miscalculated

- the figures just don't add up.

I think I need to borrow the brain of a mathematician with a double first from Cambridge to try

and decipher how this original loan was calculated.

 

Even if I take the original figures that I was supposed to pay of £10,895.00 + charges of £5799.40 = £16,694.40.

--- Excluding PPI

- looks like I paid 8 x £277.24 = £2217.92

£16,694.40 x APR of 19.8% = £19999.89 total cost of the loan (excluding PPI).

£19999.89 - £2217.92 = £17781.97

 

The replacement loan then kicked in and rather than being a HP agreement

it looks like it was converted to a standard loan so they dropped the original HP charges of £5799.40 (£17781.97 - £5799.40 = £11,982.57).

 

The new loan was for a total of £11,464.03 at a new APR of 7.4% (instead of 19.8% on the HP agreement and 19.1% on the PPI)

 

I could be wrong about this in terms of whether the rebate was the HP charges.

It could have been they realised they'd added the cash I had paid as a deposit (£4,100) into the loan

and deducted this and the other payments I'd made 8 x £277.24 = £2217.92 (£4100 + £2217.92 = £6317.92)

but this is a bit more than the rebate of £6039.89

 

If it were me I would be contacting BH to see if you can find out what amount (if any) was rebated for the PPI.

 

Alternatively is there anything in the SAR paperwork which gives more information on the rebate figure?

 

I think I'll have to contact BH because there is nothing in SAR stuff they've sent me that explains this.

 

Even if there was a rebate of PPI it is highly likely that it would not have been the correct amount.

I'm sure you're right about this - especially as all of their other calculations seem to be incorrect on the first loan (HP agreement).

 

Either way, the new loan would have been paying off some or all of the PPI which was included in the original HP agreement.

As a result you will have been paying for PPI through the second account.

Working this out is going to be difficult!

 

Please have a read of No.1 in my signature and you will see what I am talking about.

 

I'm very impressed - you must have invested so much time in producing that guidance

and I know all those who've read it must be so grateful

- as I am

- that you've taken the time to do that

- not to mention all the help you and other senior CAGers give on individual threads.

(not senior in age - I mean senior in status...I'll stop typing under this heading now before I dig a deeper whole on that one)

 

What were the mechanics of taking out the second loan?

By that I mean did you approach Black Horse about it?

CarCraft were not involved in that negotiation I assume?

 

I contacted Car Craft in the first instance and

they told me the loan had always been with Blackhorse and to take it up with them.

I phoned Blackhorse and said I thought something wasn't quite right about the total amount of the loan

and they said something like "Oh yes, we'll recalculate it for you."

I then received the 'replacement' loan agreement through the post,

signed it and paid the new amounts each month.

 

All in all this has been a bit of a dog's dinner

- original calculations incorrect,

adding in cash I'd paid them onto the total loan amount,

PPI etc and the fact that, even with 1 months refund

it looks as though I paid 8 x months on the original loan and 54 x months on the 'replacement' loan - so 62 payments overall.

 

Thanks for all your help ims21 and any other CAGers who can help / advise to decipher this mess.

[ims21]

Ok thanks for this.

 

There's a lot there so I'll go through it this afternoon and get back to you, probably early evening.

[Escritor2013]

Great - thanks ims21 - it's really kind of you and sorry my reply was so long

[dx100uk]

I have alerted the carcraft rep too

 

dx

[Escritor2013]

I have alerted the carcraft rep too

 

dx

 

For a few moments dx I thought you meant there was a Car Craft PPI expert within CAG but now realise your joke about alerting the Car Craft rep to the complexity of my post #5above

 

I know your good on agreements etc - does any of #5 make sense to you?

[ims21]

Hi

 

I have had a look through and can give you my observations.

 

To me it still seems that it was CarCraft who sold you the PPI from what you have said and thus it will for them to receive the complaint of mis-selling.

 

You now have an additional reason for the mis-sale, i.e. the pre-existing medical condition.

 

As far as the HP agreement goes, the maths on that document is correct.

 

The figure which appears on your opening statement of £20,187.60 is made up of the amount to repaid by instalments for the car finance of £16,694.40 plus the amount to be repaid for the PPI loan of £3,493.20.

 

The total payable under the agreement (the car finance bit) of £20,794.40 is the absolute total of everything, including the deposit and is shown correctly on the document.

 

The PPI part of the loan is £2,314.14 (not £2,314.40) plus the interest on that loan of £1,179.06 which totals correctly to £3,493.20.

 

As far as the rebate figure goes, BH statements tended to show a PPI rebate as a distinct item if I remember correctly but there is no such note on your statements. This is what you need to check with BH. Was there a PPI rebate and if so how much was it and that they should provide evidence. For the moment you should assume that no rebate was given as there is no mention of it in the paperwork you have received.

 

To calculate your potential redress is quite easy.

 

In the article at No.1 in my signature there is a Statutory Interest spreadsheet at the end. Download it and save it to your PC. Open it up from your hard drive and list the payments of £58.22 you actually made. You will need to enter the date of the payment and the amounts. You should end up with 8 entries.

 

When you have done that, shout here and we can work out the PPI included in the second loan.

[dx100uk]

I cant find anything wrong with the calcs either.

 

as for the sick cover etc

 

this is an example from the FOS site

 

dx

[Escritor2013]

ims21 - thank you so much for checking all that and for the link to the SI spreadsheet. I've updated this with the 8 x £58.22 payments and attached this - I hope I've done this correctly.

 

dx - thank you so much for the example from the FOS site - makes interesting reading and is useful to underpin my understanding of one of the reasons I believe this was mis-sold to me.

 

I'm guessing the next steps are to follow ims's advice on the second loan / rebate - i.e. check with BH but assume at the moment no PPI in the rebate and try and calculate the potential redress on this basis while in parallel checking with BH before the complaint / claim goes off to car Craft?

 

You are both absolute stars for the hours you put into helping people.

[Escritor2013]

Oops....forgot the spreadsheet

[ims21]

So we now know that in view of the fact that loan 2 paid off the HP, part of the money borrowed on loan 2 paid off the PPI part of the HP.

 

So this is now a simple exercise in percentages to establish what amount in loan 2 related to the PP part of the HP.

 

The HP total balance payable per the opening statement was £20,187.60 of which the PPI part was £3,493.20 which means that PPI was 17.3% of the total amount. The settlement figure for the HP was £11,464.03 and 17.3% of that figure is £1,983.27 which is effectively the amount of PPI being paid off over the life of the second loan.

 

Your monthly payments on loan 2 were £248.98 and 17.3% of that relates to the PPI which is £43.07 per month.

 

In your spreadsheet, underneath the list you have already entered, you now need to list the payments of £43.07 you actually made.

 

When you have done that, the spreadsheet will give you the amount of redress you should be expecting.

 

This is, of course, assuming that no PPI rebate was given when the HP was settled and that is something you are going to investigate with BH.

[Escritor2013]

Thanks ims - you're a wizard at all this.

 

A few quick questions:

 

a. should I now write to blackhorse and ask them whether any rebate was given on PPI when loan 2 was set up and ask for clear evidence of this?

 

b. should I send the complaint to Carcraft, with the FOS questionnaire completed and a covering letter and this spreadsheet and let them work it out if they believe a rebate included some of the PPI?

 

c. should I do both of the above in parallel or will that confuse things?

 

Thanks again for all your help with this

[ims21]

If it were me I would try and clarify the rebate position first.

[Escritor2013]

Thanks again ims - I've written to Blackhorse today to clarify the rebate issue - hopefully won't be too long before I hear back.

[ims21]

[Escritor2013]

I've had 2 x letters from Black Horse today.

 

The first - related to the initial Loan says they are investigating, wait 8 weeks etc.

 

The second - states that "Our records show that you did not purchase PPI for this loan agreement so I am unable to uphold your complaint."

 

\\i'm not sure about that. From what you've said earlier in this thread ims, there would have been some residual PPI rolled into the second loan even if this wasn't shown on the agreement. The price of the second loan, from my calculations, is too high anyway (purchase price) so there is an issue here.

 

Any advice greatly appreciated...

[ims21]

Hi

 

Yes 8 weeks is the standard....if you don't hear by that deadline then you are able to lodge a complaint with fos.

 

As far as any PPI in loan 2 is concerned, while they are correct that there was no direct PPI, it is highly likely that there will be residual PPI from loan 1. The quantum of course all depends on the rebate situation for the HP which you are currently querying.

 

If and when upheld, they should take account of the extra you were paying on the second loan albeit that they may well wrap it all up in the loan 1 complaint.

 

This is why you need the information on that rebate so that you can ensure they are not taking you for a ride again.

 

Lloyds/BH are, after all, the biggest outfit for mis-selling in this PPI scandal and so you should never trust them (or any bank come to that).

[Escritor2013]

Thanks ims - good advice as always

 

I did write to them about the rebate situation from Loan 1

and the response quoted above in the second letter appears to be their response to the rebate question.

 

I think I might be better to wait and see what they say on 'loan 1' and whether they offer compensation

and see whether there is any calculation on residual PPI from loan 1??

 

I can't think of what else to do unless they're prepared to provide a breakdown with more detail

- which is what I asked them to do in my last letter.

 

As you say, don't trust them an inch.

[Escritor2013]

I'm hopeless at updating information

 

 

- after a long drawn-out process, I eventually accepted the offer they made - which was incredibly useful at the time.

 

 

I still have other PPIs to claim and I know the clock is likely to be ticking now.

 

 

Thanks you ims and Dx for all your help with this.

[dx100uk]

thanks for updating.

 

 

any more help just scream.