Blackpool Council PCN Fine re: upsidedown BB & Phoenix - intimidation/extreme charges!

[kken67]

In April this year,

I took my disabled mother shopping in Blackpool using her blue badge in a disabled bay for the first time

came back to a parking fine as we had accidently put the badge photo side up in the car.

I rang and explained but to no avail.

 

I wrote a letter and with the exception of 1 reminder,

nothing else was received so I assumed they had relented when they saw it was a genuine mistake.

 

I have received a letter from Phoenix bailiffs demanding £125.

I did a little bit of investigating online and found that I could submit an out of time statutory declaration but there appears to be a bit of confusion which forms I should complete.

 

I rand Phoenix up and told them what I was doing and they have just sent another letter now demanding over £300!!

 

What do I do next.

I havent put in the out of time forms as I am not sure which ones to use and

I am sure they cant just charge what they like anyway.

 

Advice about how to proceed from here would be great thanks.

Edited October 24, 2012 by citizenB
Formatting

[tomtubby]

The time to call a bailiff is AFTER an Out of Time Witness Statement has been submitted and NOT before!!1

 

What you need to do is call the Traffic Enforcement Centre on 08457 045 007 and wait to speak with an operator. Provide them with the PCN number (this will be two digits followed by 8 numbers) and they will then forward the relevant form to you by email. In most cases the forms are the TE7 and TE9.

 

With these forms, you do not need to sign them. Instead, you will need to just write or type your name in the 2 boxes at the end of each form.

 

 

If you have any problems, please post back.

[kken67]

Thanks, I have rung today, they emailed forms which I completed and emailed back. I will keep you guys updated as I may need some further help.

[kken67]

Due to an unpaid pcn

I had a Bailiff from Phoenix call this morning demanding £311 on the spot

or he would ring for a tow truck and charge for that aswell.

 

He was verbally and physically intimidating.

He had already parked his van in front of the car so trapping it in.

 

The pcn was actually due to me putting my mums disabled blue badge the wrong way up the first time I used it.

 

I was in dispute with Blackpool council over it and

 

the last correspondence I had from them was a request to send in a photocopy of the front

and back of the blue badge and they would look at the situation.

 

They claim not to have received this from us and apparently sent out some kind of enforcement letter

which I genuinely didnt receive which resulted in the visit this morning.

 

Straight away he asked if I owned the car which I said no to as I still owe a small amount of money on a small loan.

I told him it wasnt HP but he still insisted on doing a HP check

and then added that onto the cost which became £326.

 

I told him I didnt have that kind of money and have a sick daughter at home

and need the car for hospital appointments.

 

I also asked him if I could pay something towards the charge and get it sorted out with Blackpool council

but he flat out refused.

 

I tried explaining to him that he would leave me with 9p with a vunerable daughter (classed as disabled)

and no way of paying for anything including gas/electric etc as I dont get paid til 28th of the month.

 

He just laughed and said he wasnt bothered and that was my problem not his.

 

He then just got his mobile out and said 'right, you paying or am I ringing the tow truck'.

I had not option but to give him the money.

He went away laughing!!

 

I then rang Blackpool council and the lady there misunderstood that I had already paid the bailiff

and said dont worry we can get this sent back to 'notice'.

 

When I explained that I had already been forced to pay she then said that amounted to accepting liability

and she couldnt help me and to deal with the Bailiffs.

I didnt accept liability, I had no choice as he was going to call a tow truck and charge me hundreds more.

 

I rand the Bailiffs and they just said to put my complaint in writing and hung up.

 

This was his first visit and he charged over £200 (the pcn was for £105)

 

I have emailed a strong complaint but what can I do, and

 

now I am left with nothing for the next 10 days.

 

Surely they cant get away with these bully tactics!

 

Any advice?

[dementedfeline]

Formal Complaint to CEO of council by email first thing tomorrow morning. If you can supply written evidence of your child's disability, so much the better. One thing to check - is the address on the car's V5 (logbook) correct/have you moved recently? All correspondence from council will be sent to address on V5.

[i hate bailiffs]

How did you pay the bailiff? Card ?

[dx100uk]

have you moved recently?

 

or since the ticket?

 

there should have been a series of letters leading upto his visit?

 

as for the upside-down badge issue

 

its rare for a council to continue once they have proved one was used be it 'wrongly'

[kken67]

I have sent an email to the Bailiffs and at the request of parking services at Blackpool, I have copied them in.

 

I will find it in a min and post my email on here aswell.

 

Please bear in mind this was written soon after having a row with the woman on the end of the phone

at the Bailiffs as they had gone against their own published policies.

 

I dont actually have the car involved anymore,

it went to a local private dealer in part ex so I wonder if any of the correspondence has gone there,

which would be no good as he went to jail recently for fraud.

I hadnt thought about that!!

 

Also, any idea what they can charge legally in fees as £200 plus as a 1st visit

where they got the money seems excessive.

I thought there were limits they could charge.

 

Btw, my daughter is an adult but very poorly with severe mental health problems and kidney failure.

 

The Bailiffs said that vunerability only applies to the customer themselves

so even though I am responsible for my daughter and support her financially

(we have had a PIP claim in since 31st July last year, whole other story)

her illness and vunerability is irrelevent and hardship only applies if their is nothing they can take to cover the charges.

 

I even tried to show him my bank balance which was 9p.

 

I received a visit from one of your bailiffs in respect of an unpaid

penalty charge for Blackpool council xxxxxxxxxx

 

He was obnoxious and intimidating to me.

He demanded £311 to be paid immediately or he would ring a tow truck

and remove my car and I would be charged with that fee

on top of the £200 bailiff charges already imposed.

 

He blocked me in using his van and was verbally and physically

intimidating towards me.

 

My husband had to have a word with him about

his attitude as it was completely unjustified.

 

I explained that we did not have the money and had both hardship

and a vunerable person in the house and by his actions

it would leave us with 9p so we would not be able to live.

 

He actually said 'so what, thats your problem not mine'

 

I have looked at your polices and they specify where a customer can

show financial hardship (which I offered to do to the agent there and

then) , the bailiff must take further instructions from the client

before proceeding any further.

 

He did not do this!

 

Also your policies state that you will offer reasonable instalments,

I asked if we could do this whilst we got it all sorted out

and he not only refused but laughed in my face

and said 'right, are you paying this or am I ringing the tow truck!'

 

We were totally bullied by your agent.

He also asked me about the car and I did say we owe money for it,

I did not say it was on HP at any time but a small loan

but he decided to run a HP check and added that to the bill aswell.

 

His actions were unprofessional,

uncaring and against your policies.

 

I have spoken to Blackpool council about this and been advised that if

we had not been forced into paying the bailiff, they would be prepared

to take this case back to notice. But, because we had paid, it is

classed as accepting liability.

 

We did not accept liability, we were threatened with massive additional costs

and the car we use to take my daughter to hospital being towed away.

 

We had absolutely no choice to safeguard our daughters welfare.

 

So, we now have 9p, a very sick daughter and no way to pay for gas/electric etc.

 

In addition, the charges levied by yourselves are completely

unreasonable and I demand by return a concise breakdown and evidence of

your legal right to charge these fees.

 

I hope you are happy with the situation you have left us in and sleep

easy in your beds tonight knowing what you have done.

 

I hope you never find yourself in the position you have left us in.

 

I could not live with myself in your shoes, it is disgusting.

 

You are dealing with human beings here, sick and vunerable at that,

not just account numbers.

 

I couldnt do your job and be happy with myself and you should be ashamed

of your bailiffs actions. I am copying blackpool parking services into

this email at their request.

 

You need to adhere to your policies and human decency and return the

money to us and we will then deal direct with Blackpool council

ourselves.

[kken67]

No, I had to go to the cashpoint and get cash.

 

I bet correspondence has gone to the guy who took my car.

 

Like I said, he has recently been jailed for 2 years for fraud.

 

But, they knew to come to my address which hasnt changed and, say they didnt receive my lette

r and photocopies of my mums badge even though its been sent twice now.

 

We must have a post eating monster roaming the Fylde coast!!

 

Do you think I have any chance of getting this money back because we a snookered without it.

[i hate bailiffs]

First thing in the morning contact your local councillors and local MP

 

They should put pressure on the council as it was there agents

and the council should be the ones taking the flack for this

 

Getting those on board will help you get justice

[dx100uk]

just a couple of points

vulnerability applies to the WHOLE household

if the there is a vul pers living there.

 

side issue

you've sold the car to a dealer

have you paid moneybarn off then?

 

if not you could be in serious trouble

as most moneybarn cars are secured by a bill of sale

nasty thing that.

ignore this wrong thread - dx

dx

[kken67]

just a couple of points

vulnerability applies to the WHOLE household

if the there is a vul pers living there.

 

side issue

you've sold the car to a dealer

have you paid moneybarn off then?

 

if not you could be in serious trouble

as most moneybarn cars are secured by a bill of sale

nasty thing that.

IGNORE THIS WRONG THREAD - DX

dx

 

Hi dx,

 

I part exed my old car to a local car dealer (the car that got the ticket)

and bought my present car with the help of a small loan from friends.

I dont have a moneybarn car, I am not actually sure what one is tbh.

 

So fortunately I dont owe anything to moneybarn.

 

As it is, the car I have is a crock and the dealers car fraud (not my sub standard car)

is one of the reasons he has gone to jail amongst other things but I was stupidly swayed

by the apparent condition of this car for the price.

 

Maybe I should have let the bailiff take the car except that I need it!

Anyone got any ideas re the charges the bailiffs charges?

[tomtubby]

Speak to the council this morning and find out the precise address where all statutory notices had been sent.

 

You say that you appealed the PCN to Blackpool. Have they confirmed whether they received the appeal?

 

The fees are wrong and this is for the COUNCIL to address as their contract should ensure that the fees that this AGENT can charge are in accordance with the statutory regulations. It would appear that Blackpool are allowing this company to charge an "attending to remove" fee at an INITIAL VIST. Not permitted.

 

The above question is serious but I would like to take this opportunity to STRESS the importance of ensuring that if an appeal is made about a parking ticket that copies of correspondence are kept and that if possible always make appeals ONLINE. That way there is proof of sending and all councils have a system of automatically acknowledging emails.

 

The problem that we have form the 6th April is that LEGALLY bailiffs will be permitted to charge a £75 fee to send an initial letter. If the debtor ignores the correspondence, an 'enforcement visit' will be made to which as charge of £235 will apply.

 

In the case outlined above (kken67) from 6th April the bailiff can LEGALLY request payment of £420 which will be £105 for the PCN. £75 for the letter and £235 for the visit.

 

As you will see, the amount will legally be £100 more than the amount (wrongly) demanded today.

[kken67]

Hi tomtubby,

I appealed the original pcn and said it was a genuine error as I had never used the blue badge before.

 

They sent a letter asking for photocopies of the front and back.

Then nothing for a while until a threat of bailiff action.

 

I sent the out of time form and got it sent back to notice on the basis of their lack of response.

I also at that point sent a further copy of the front and back and since then, nothing!! (genuinely).

 

I thought it was as settled until the visit by the bailiff yesterday and everything that ensued then.

 

I have spoken to Blackpool council who clearly don't believe I haven't received the notices

 

before she knew I had been forced to pay,

said they would take it back to notice again

but as soon as I said we had been forced to pay,

she said it was now too late as I had admitted liability by paying and would have to take it up with the bailiffs.

 

I also explained they hadn't followed their own published policies and the position we were left in and she still said take it up with the bailiffs and copy us in.

 

I have done this but you can imagine how difficult the bailiffs are to deal with, they just dont care.

They have their money so will be slap on the back time for the bailiff.

They did charge the attending to remove fee as you mentioned and it was the first visit.

 

We didnt receive any letter from the bailiffs at all so didnt ignore it.

My financial situation is too severe to have done that!

 

Are we stuck with this do you think, or is there any way forward because we just cant manage.

[tomtubby]

kken67

 

I had not known that you had filed a successful Out of Time.

 

The position today is that you have paid and you ned to make the point VERY clear to the council that the payment was made under serious duress given that the bailiff blocked your car in an threatened to remove it UNLESS payment was made. Accordingly, you had NO ALTERNATIVE . This is the basis of a formal complaint to the council as the actions today have left you virtually penniless and in a very vulnerable position.

 

You are perfectly able to file another Out of Time but this will take a long time to resolve. Your position is serious TODAY.

 

The council must address this right now. The bailiff is merely their agent and the council are perfectly able to call the bailiff and get him to return to your property and repay you. They are able to do this. You need to get the name of the person who you have spoken with today.

[kken67]

Thank you so much for your time, I really appreciate it.

 

I am going to try Blackpool council again now and see what I can do.

 

I wouldnt mind but it seems pretty evident that they dont believe we didnt receive the correspondence.

 

I guess people would try that but we didnt.

 

I guess aswell that we can prove we responded to previous correspondence with an out of time request so why wouldnt we do that again.

Well, I will go and try now.

Thanks again.

[kken67]

Hi,

got absolutely nowhere with Blackpool Council,

they are still sticking to their you have to deal with the Bailiffs attitude.

I reiterated that they are the councils agents and everything they had done wrong

and how they should deal with them but didnt get anywhere at all.

 

I also said it was my understanding that vunerability applies to the household

but the woman says no, its just the customer.

 

I offered to send a screen shot to them showing the 9p we have left and she said ok

but probably wont change anything (I have done this now).

 

Not only that, she said that she had spoken to the bailiffs and they said we had contacted them earlier this month

and told them we no longer had the car and hadnt for the past 4 yrs.

 

Outright lies, we only changed the car in 2012 and the first contact we have had with the Bailiffs was yesterday.

The council woman said they wouldnt have put that in their notes if it hadnt happened but they are lying through their teeth.

 

I have said to the council I will stand up in a court of law to say this.

How can they blatantly lie like this.

They know they have done wrong.

 

So frustrated!!!!

[i hate bailiffs]

First thing in the morning contact your local councillors and local MP

 

 

How did you get on with contacting these?

As you know the council do not want to know

 

They will answer to councillors and MP

[brassnecked]

Contact your local councillor and MP via http://www.writetothem.com

[kken67]

I havent done this yet,

actually spent hours this morning emailing and talking to Blackpool council parking services

and emailing Phoenix.

 

They demanded evidence if hardship so

 

I had to screenshot my bank account page

(dw, the account no was blotted out)

and then had to go look after my mum so

just got home,

fed my kids

and checked on here,

 

Brassnecked has kindly put a link into their message to do just that

so will do in the morning and let you guys know how I got on.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Brassnecked, thank you for the link, this is definately my next move.

 

I have had a very frustrating day so far and got nowhere.

 

Convinced now that they make things so difficult hoping you'll just give up but I wont out of principal.

[lamma]

You are not alone in being convinced of that.

 

However being convinced means carrying on with conviction in return.

[kken67]

Have just re-emailed the council parking services and told them if they dont sort this out first thing in the morning that I will inform the local councillors/ MP/ Mental Health services/ press etc

 

including detailing the councils lack of action when we have proved hardship and vulnerability.

I have also said that THEY are responsible for their agents actions which at present they are saying they are not!

 

Dw, I have no intention of rolling over for them.

I dont want them fleecing others aswell as sorting our own situation out.

May need further help re my situation legally and am so grateful for all your guys help.

[mikeymack2002]

A spanner in the works here, did the civil enforcement officer take a picture of the blue badge the wrong way down? if not this could work in your favour.

 

In as much they have to take a number of photos including the ticket on the screen, position in bay/area, the sign that was at the scene a full frontal of car and tax disc. to name but a few. was this provided to you? the machine they used is called a "husky" also the CEO must have stated in his pocket book that the blue badge was displayed upside down, if so this too should have been photographed as evidence of the contravention, if the pocketbook is not correctly filled out then the "evidence" gathered has been incorrectly noted. Since it was upside down your personal detail were on display, and this too should have been noted in the pocket book.

 

Entries into the pocket book MUST include these and as much detail as known at the time...

 

1. MAKE MODEL COLOUR Index mark

2. Position of the valves on the wheels,

3. Position of vehicle in relation to a landmark IE o/s 21 High St.

4. Time of the logging of the vehicle this MUST show hh:mm:ss

5. Nature of contravention IE 01/ single yellow line with bars on kerb 02/ double yellow lines 40/parked in a disabled bay no badge 47/ bus stop clearway and so on, so maybe you can still have a get out of jail card if the pocketbook was incorrectly filled out, ask for this.

6.The time of the ticket being issued

7. If blue badge is incorrectly placed, then the details must be placed in the pocket book, the details of the card holder they should have included the line " blue badge displayed the wrong way up with these details showing" plus the time arrived on the clock as displayed was "xx-xx"

 

These are the rules that CEO's must comply with when entering CORRECT info in to the pocketbook just in case something like this happens, if the pocketbook is not filled out correctly then the evidence is "tainted" therefore inadmissible for enforcement.

 

I hope this info helps you as I was once in a previous life one of these animals much to my dismay. long before I was disabled

 

Also a sub note did you get to see the alleged ticket? if not you need to get a copy as CEO's are trigger happy and can and do shave off seconds to issue the ticket quicker, let me explain the CEO looks at the time as displayed as such HH/MM/SS if he presses enter to log the offence at say 11:01:59 seconds all he has to do is wait till 11:06:01 to get 5 minutes for an 02 offence which is 5 mins waiting but in reality it is only 4 mins and 2 seconds have passed. This happens more than you realise. The ticket only ever displays hh:mm not hh:mm:ss

 

 

PS sorry for the long reply, the reason for so much detail is because if procedure was not followed correctly then the tickect is possibly unenforcable which may help you in a way.

 

 

MM

[brassnecked]

Nice one mikeymack, I would doubt that target driven parking wardens will follow the rules absolutely correctly at all for the majority of tickesta s it would take them too long to do it, and time is tickets to issue.

 

Might be worth a challenge on evidential grounds.

[lamma]

The pocket book isn't used for enforcement. There may be evidential weight IF it can be revealed and is relevant but not all of the 'musts' are at all relevant to enforcement e.g. make model colour. Anything missing from the pocket book is just that - missing.