Please help got caution for genuince mistake on the train :(

[jhenay]

Hey guys

 

Im new to this so not sure if im doing it right but hope I am

 

On the 20th Nov 18.29 I got on a train 2 stops to my gym in Greenwich. I do not usually get the train and usually walk to the gym however on this occasion I was running late for my gym class which was meant to start at 18.45

 

I quickly rushed to get the train from my house and pretty sure I tapped in however on this occasion I didnt check to see if it went through as Iv never had any problems before apart from at London Bridge where sometimes it would ask me to seek assistant even though my oyster was fully loaded.

 

Anyway as i got to the next stop i felt a someone tap my shoulder, I was listening to music gearing myself up for my gym class that it startled me a little the guy standing next to me found it funny as I was so ingrossed into my music and jumped into him

 

Anyway this guy holds out a reader and asks for my ticket im fumbling around in my bag looking for my Oyster as I tend to just chuck it in my bag after I tapped in, once i found it i produced it to him and he scanned it. he then said I didnt tap in. I was so shocked i just didnt know what to say i said to him that it was fully loaded with money so there was no reason for it not to have worked. I checked my iphone app to confirm and it showed I had 48.50 on my oyster.

 

I was so embarrassed I asked him if he can get off at greenwich station the destination I was going at he said yes and we got off.

 

He then asked me if I had cash to pay for the fare to which I said no, my gym has had several break ins in their locker changing rooms and advise their customers to leave all their valuables at home which i take seriously. each night i go to the gym I leave all belongings at home the only thing i take in my gym bag is my towel, padlock, water bottle and oyster card and of course my fone but I keep that on me at all times.

I said I told him i know my bank card off by heart and can give that to him he said no its not good enough.

 

He then asked for my details to which i wrote it down and informed him that the card is registered under my name and he can check this he then proceeded to contact someone on his walky talky to confirm to which he said it wasnt matching - which was absurd and asked for my details again after he realised he spelt my surname wrong to the person on the other end he then asked them if I had any previous to which they said no!

 

I have had this oyster card for many years now and top up over 100£ every month and never had any problems like this if anything they always email me to say im due a refund as they accidentally overcharged me

 

He then said 'regardless im going to caution you anyway' and walked off with my oyster card

 

he left me with this other guy im assuming his silent colleague as he had no clue what was happening either. He then came back and read me my rights and asked me all these questions.

 

At this point im fuming and cold I couldnt feel my fingers or my nose and had missed my gym class I didnt even get to the gym til 40minutes later

 

he wrote stuff in his notepad which i took pictures of aswel he says on question 9 that he asked for any means of payment but when i said to him i knew my bank card off by heart he said it was irelevant to the question which i found to be ridiculous i know my long bank card expiry start and security code all off by heart so i didnt see how it was not relevant

 

Furthermore when i asked him to provide id he didnt but managed to get his name off his badge although he was reluctant to do so.

 

As I walked away he said 'il see you in court' which i found to be an unprofessional comment to make.

 

What annoys me more is the fact that he went through my past history of travel and said that i hadnt used my oyster card since the 18th which is true and he then smirked and said 'so what bout your travel on the 19th' to which i said theres no law against not using my oyster for a day i felt like he was trying to say that i was fare jumping that day too but i said nothing more

 

Iv never felt so humiliated or disgusted in my life - I ws being treated like a criminal. yes i should have checked my oyster had gone through but i would never fare jumped on purpose and clearly it was a genuine mistake i am only human after all.

 

I work hard for my money and pay my taxes i was merely going to the gym and something happened to my oyster along the way.

 

I dont know whats going to happen now he just said heres your oyster and someone will right to you 'il see u in court'

 

has anyone got any idea what happens now i dont want this to escalate further it was a genuine mistake i dont even know what happened to my oyster when i got to the station they should really get barriers there

 

he said its a caution but didnt explain further even when i asked him

 

please can someone advise as to what happens now and what i can do - i dont want a criminal record for this it could effect future employment is there anything I should shouldnt do? i dont even know :'( please help

[Lookingforjustice]

I understand that travelling on transport without having paid the correct fare is an absolute offence. Which means regardless of the treatment you received the company can take further action if they wish. I believe it would be worthwhile writing to the company to explain. I understand the procedure is normally to charge a £10 penalty and caution individuals not to do it again. You record was probably being checked to see if you had been cautioned before which 2nd time around they would probably consider prosecution. If I was you I would explain the situation and ask for them to consider their action in the circumstances to be disproportionate in not accepting your explanation.

 

If they are not prepared to accept your explanation without any further action to request their policies in relation to first time infringements. Most stations in South East London have CCTV at the barriers so you could ask if this is the case and ask for it to be reviewed to prove that you did indeed touch the oyster reader with your card and it was their equipment that was defective. However if they leave barriers open for people to go through it encourages individuals not to check the reader has registered when going through. They should leave the barrier closed so it won't open if the card hasn't properly registered.

 

Regardless of whether you may have inadvertently committed an offence, the ticket inspector should have acted with respect. I strongly suspect everyone will tell them they made a mistake, (have done it myself ) so it is down to the individual inspector to decide what action to take.

 

If your oyster card is showing regular journeys and high spending I would hope you would receive the benefit of the doubt. Like you I also remember my card details but in face to face transactions (as opposed to on-line) it can't and shouldn't be accepted. I would say though it does display a willingness to co-operate.

 

I think you got stopped by this guy when he had had a bad day or was trying to impress the other person with him but I can't see that someone who hasn't properly identified himself should be allowed to walk off with your oyster card for whatever reason. 40 minutes to deal with one person seems excessive as travellers are frequently stopped by Inspectors at London Bridge and I think if it took 40 minutes to deal with each person the backlog would cause chaos in the mornings!

 

I hope you get a more sympathetic hearing from the South Eastern trains. I have the other problem a disability that affects my memory. The number of times I have tapped in but forget to tap out has cost me an unmitigated fortune. Nobody has turned up to offer me a refund and I even had someone tell me it's a fine for forgetting to tap out!

[jhenay]

I understand that travelling on transport without having paid the correct fare is an absolute offence. Which means regardless of the treatment you received the company can take further action if they wish. I believe it would be worthwhile writing to the company to explain. I understand the procedure is normally to charge a £10 penalty and caution individuals not to do it again. You record was probably being checked to see if you had been cautioned before which 2nd time around they would probably consider prosecution. If I was you I would explain the situation and ask for them to consider their action in the circumstances to be disproportionate in not accepting your explanation.

 

If they are not prepared to accept your explanation without any further action to request their policies in relation to first time infringements. Most stations in South East London have CCTV at the barriers so you could ask if this is the case and ask for it to be reviewed to prove that you did indeed touch the oyster reader with your card and it was their equipment that was defective. However if they leave barriers open for people to go through it encourages individuals not to check the reader has registered when going through. They should leave the barrier closed so it won't open if the card hasn't properly registered.

 

Regardless of whether you may have inadvertently committed an offence, the ticket inspector should have acted with respect. I strongly suspect everyone will tell them they made a mistake, (have done it myself ) so it is down to the individual inspector to decide what action to take.

 

If your oyster card is showing regular journeys and high spending I would hope you would receive the benefit of the doubt. Like you I also remember my card details but in face to face transactions (as opposed to on-line) it can't and shouldn't be accepted. I would say though it does display a willingness to co-operate.

 

I think you got stopped by this guy when he had had a bad day or was trying to impress the other person with him but I can't see that someone who hasn't properly identified himself should be allowed to walk off with your oyster card for whatever reason. 40 minutes to deal with one person seems excessive as travellers are frequently stopped by Inspectors at London Bridge and I think if it took 40 minutes to deal with each person the backlog would cause chaos in the mornings!

 

I hope you get a more sympathetic hearing from the South Eastern trains. I have the other problem a disability that affects my memory. The number of times I have tapped in but forget to tap out has cost me an unmitigated fortune. Nobody has turned up to offer me a refund and I even had someone tell me it's a fine for forgetting to tap out!

 

 

 

Thank you so much for replying! im so angry i dont know what happens next i wasnt given any paper work or anything it just seemed so surreal and bogus i mean how are theyb allowed to caution you but not give you any form of paperwork i was just told to expect a letter

 

firstly does anyone know how long this letter takes to get here?

 

how do i contact south eastern i dont want to email only to be to the wrong department - im so confused - like i said it was an innocent mistake iv never done such a thing like this in my life. im just disgusted by the way i was treated if i had the money i would have given it to them anything is better than waiting and the not knowing is killing me - I AM SO WORRIED RIGHT NOW

[king12345]

What service did you use, London Underground or DLR?

Also, are there barriers at your starting station?

[jhenay]

What service did you use, London Underground or DLR?

Also, are there barriers at your starting station?

 

 

Hey its overground westcombe park - no barriers at this station - i used the station to come back from the gym today and the oyster machine wasnt working had to go to the other platform to tap out! grrrr

[king12345]

You should have taken a pictures of the faulty validators.

I think that the interview undr caution was a bit heavy handed.

The fact that there are no barriers makes the oyster system a risky business for passengers and they know it.

A penalty fare would have been more appropriate.

Anyway, you now have to wait for their letter and see what their intentions are.

In the mean time request a statement from the Oyster helpdesk which gives you the last 60 transactions/journeys I think, differently from the ticket office printout which only gives you the last 8.

This statement will corroborate that you use your oyster on a regular basis and correctly.

Also, write a complaint about being mistreated and missing your class.

Some managers are so keen to please customers that they might just shred your file and send you an apology.

Worth a shot I think.

[Grotesque]

Your advice is priceless, cheers!

[king12345]

Your advice is priceless, cheers!

I didn't get the joke

[Old-CodJA]

I think most did though.

[Lookingforjustice]

It seems letters are normally received between 4/6 weeks from the event. This may go longer with Christmas being about. Can you let us know when you receive your letter and what it says? There are similar situations going on you might like to look at on the forum eg provided false information to National Rail. There's relevant information provided there although the circumstances are not quite the same. Have you spoken to your local station about CCTV yet to see if they can help you? I'm not sure how they do their CCTV locally or centrally but whereever it is stored, it is likely they do not keep it very long. By the time you get your letter, any CCTV may have been erased. If they did have it and it's been erased you can argue once they considered taking action they had a duty to preserve any relevant evidence which would have supported your version of events. If they did have it and you can get it preserved better still.

 

Unless you believe in attack being the best form of defence and want to take the route of complaining first about your treatment waiting to see what the letter will say. It appears that they were going to fine you on the spot but you had no means of paying so it would not make sense that because you didn't have the means to pay they should then decide to have a harsher line and prosecute you. There is no intent to not pay your fare, you thought you had. If they decide to fine you, I would use the circumstances to argue down a fine to allowing you just to pay the fare that was missed.

 

Fines are a penalty for wrongdoing. Technically you didn't tap in properly but you thought you had. If the barriers hadn't been open then you just wouldn't have got through and the problem would never have existed. Why do they leave them open? What is the likely result of this action?

 

Have a great Xmas. Hopefully you've probably got over the first annoyance of this and hope this forum can offer some more advice when the letter is received.

[Lookingforjustice]

Good advice to get the Oyster statement as well. All evidence to support your version of events.

[Old-CodJA]

im so angry i dont know what happens next i wasnt given any paper work or anything it just seemed so surreal and bogus i mean how are theyb allowed to caution you but not give you any form of paperwork i was just told to expect a letter. firstly does anyone know how long this letter takes to get here?

Lookingforjustice is right, 4- 6 weeks may be the norm, but can extend at busy times

 

how do i contact south eastern i dont want to email only to be to the wrong department

The best thing to do is actually WAIT for that letter to arrive. Once it does you will have the unique reference number allocated to your case and will know exactly who to write to in order to give your explanation. Furthermore, if you write or call to remind them and the inspector had lost his notes or forgotten to file a report, which sometimes does happen, all you will do is remind them that they need to take action that they might otherwise not have done.

 

 

- im so confused - like i said it was an innocent mistake iv never done such a thing like this in my life. im just disgusted by the way i was treated if i had the money i would have given it to them anything is better than waiting and the not knowing is killing me - I AM SO WORRIED RIGHT NOW

I wouldn’t let it spoil Christmas, simply make accurate notes of what you can recall so that you have things clear in mind if & when the letter arrives.

 

 

Fines are a penalty for wrongdoing.

I feel that we just have to clarify this point again. The Penalty Fare is not a fine. Only the Courts can impose fines. It is a legally permitted civil remedy for dealing with a genuine mistake where the collection of a fare is justified.

 

 

Technically you didn't tap in properly but you thought you had. If the barriers hadn't been open then you just wouldn't have got through and the problem would never have existed. Why do they leave them open? What is the likely result of this action?

The OP has already made clear that there were no barriers at the station and there does not have to be. There were validation points for Oyster users. I take your point though, the access control could be better, but then you get complaints from people who don't like to be slowed a little.

 

 

You should have taken a pictures of the faulty validators.

That’s completely pointless I’m afraid, what happened on a different day has no bearing on what happened at the time of the incident.

 

 

I think that the interview undr caution was a bit heavy handed.

The codes of practice in The Police & Criminal Evidence Act (1984) makes clear that as soon as a reporting officer (which includes railways revenue protection inspectors) suspects that an offence is evident, s/he must caution before asking any further questions about it.

 

 

 

The fact that there are no barriers makes the oyster system a risky business for passengers and they know it.

Like other systems in use nationally and internationally, the system operates on trust. The rules are clear and there is a mechanism for dealing with both accidental and deliberate abuse.

 

 

 

A penalty fare would have been more appropriate.

Not if the inspector believes there is evidence to support the report of an offence of fare evasion. The Penalty Fares instructions make this perfectly clear. The issue of a Penalty Fare Notice is discretionary and only the person making the investigation can make that call based on the evidence before them.

 

 

 

Anyway, you now have to wait for their letter and see what their intentions are.

Good advice.

 

 

In the mean time request a statement from the Oyster helpdesk which gives you the last 60 transactions/journeys I think, differently from the ticket office printout which only gives you the last 8.This statement will corroborate that you use your oyster on a regular basis and correctly.

Yes, a sensible course of action, which will prove useful to both sides in such a dispute.

 

 

Also, write a complaint about being mistreated and missing your class.

Any complaint about an inspectors’ actions should be treated as a personnel matter and will normally be dealt with separately within the rail company. Such complaints will be investigated accordingly. You should stick to the relevant facts and do not be tempted to make assumptions.

 

 

 

Some managers are so keen to please customers that they might just shred your file and send you an apology. Worth a shot I think.

Prosecution departments frequently receive grossly exaggerated claims about the length of time a traveller was delayed and the actions taken by staff, but CCTV and contemporaneous notes of witnesses reveal a different story. That often sheds doubt on other claims that may be made. I’m not saying the OP’s account isn’t truthful, I’m just cautioning against the temptation to read too much into the final line of the advice given by king12345

 

 

I am of the opinion that if all is as posted at the beginning of the thread this matter may be resolved without Court action, but that will be for the rail company to decide

Edited December 21, 2013 by Old-CodJA