Can my employer do this

[Madhatter1]

Hey guys back again,

 

Need some advice please.

 

My work makes us arrive to work 10 minutes early (Normal procedure I know) However they have been making us start work 10 minutes before. I arrive 20 mins before my shift and when it gets to 10 mins before I am due to start I am told to get on the shop floor and start!

 

Along with this they always make me clock out a few minutes before the whole hour is complete. We are paid in 15 min intervals so I loose around 10-13 mins pay most nights. This combined with the 10 mins before my shift is starting to add up.

 

At first I got on with it as I thought maybe that would show commitment and maybe they would be lenient on a few mins rest between orders but no they dont let you stop. I do them favours all the time ie come in early, stay late even do more more then im required to do and while doing this they are robbing at least 20-30 mins a day from me. Thats a lot of hours over the year!

 

Is there anything I can do about it?

 

I wouldnt mind if it was lets say 8:50, 5 mins is nothing but it being 7:57 and them forcing you to clock out and not letting you do a little extra cleaning or just wait a few minutes in pure out of order especially after how many favours they ask from us all. Admittedly I only do them "favours" now because I know if I dont and I need some overtime I wont get it. I also think the manager honestly thinks he is doing us all a favour by making us stay late all the time. He is young and I think he forgets that some of us have children etc.

 

Im will stop rambling now.

 

Thank you in advance

[Conniff]

How do they 'force' you to clock out ??

 

Your contracted hours are set out in your employement contract and they cannot 'force' you to do anything outside that contract.

 

Is there a union ? if not then get yourself joined up to one.

[becky2585]

Surely then all you're doing is working ten minutes earlier and leaving ten minutes earlier so if you're clocking in at the correct time, your pay wouldn't change?

 

If you're suffering financially then a formal grievance would be the way to go - although I would only suggest that if you have sufficient length of service for them not to sack you without you being able to sue!

 

I think you are right in that regardless of the job, a little flexibility is required and ten minutes isn't unreasonable. I'm salaried and I'm usually in 45 minutes before I officially start and I never have a full lunch hour - but if it was affecting my pay I might think differently!

[Conniff]

Surely then all you're doing is working ten minutes earlier and leaving ten minutes earlier so if you're clocking in at the correct time, your pay wouldn't change?

 

If you're suffering financially then a formal grievance would be the way to go - although I would only suggest that if you have sufficient length of service for them not to sack you without you being able to sue!

 

I think you are right in that regardless of the job, a little flexibility is required and ten minutes isn't unreasonable. I'm salaried and I'm usually in 45 minutes before I officially start and I never have a full lunch hour - but if it was affecting my pay I might think differently!

 

No, that's not how it works when you are paid by the 15 mins. If you clock out 1 min early, you lose 15 mins pay. If you clock in early, you don't get paid until your official start time.

 

If you clock out late, you only get paid up to your official stop time.

[renegadeimp]

Most companies that pay in 15 min brackets, work on the 8 min rule. Meaning that you must be clocked in or out, 8 mins before or after your start/finish time to be deducted. losing 15 mins for 1 min can be considered unfair.

[Madhatter1]

They must do it to the 15 mins.

 

My last weeks hours and my pay

 

Monday I did 1:50pm to 7:57pm

Tuesday 1:50pm to 8:12

Wednesday 1:50pm to 6:28

Thursday 1:50pm to 7:45

Firday 1:50pm to 7:00

 

My wage slip showed total working hours as 25.45 so I lost 1 hour 27 mins. I know its not much etc and normally I wouldnt mind but its fact that the manager is purposely making us start early and then making us clock out when we could easily do a couple mins more work. This is after us already staying behind after our normal shift every single night of the week ( without any notice) Just dropped on us.

 

Its all this that makes me mad about it. My previous job I was salaried and worked lots of extra hours unpaid however sometimes we was allowed to go home early. It was give and take and very good place to be. They seemed to be like, you did us a few favours so we will return the favour when we can. This new place asks the earth from us and never allows us any perks.

 

Just today, on my rare break (Worked more then 6 hours) I got a bot of shopping as I never get the chance normally becuase the tills close before we finish and I was refused my discount being told I could only use it when im not on shift. I asked if I could pay for some stuff and pick it up after my shift and again I was told a flat no. I aksed this because you are not allowed to have shopping with you in the building because it could mask you stealing. So the only chance I get to get the only perk we have is to go into work on my day off and that I do not want to do as I currently work 6 days a week a few 5 days due to always being guilted into working overtime.

 

I know it seems I am a moaner but I really aint, I just wanted to show why this really upsets me.

 

I actually like the job I do, I am kept busy and it makes the shift go quick and the way things are at the moment jobs are very hard to get so its not like I have much of a choice to walk. Its got to be better then being on the doll (Not much more mind you) I have an extra £50 a week to what I used to have when getting social help.

 

I am currently applying for other jobs but not holding much hope due to how long it took me to get this job.

[renegadeimp]

Sounds like theyre pulling a fast one imo. Deducting a full 15 mins for 1 min clocking in late for example can very easily be seen as unfair.

 

 

Also, they MUST pay you for what you worked. So you could take 6 of these 10 min blocks and they MUST pay you the hour that it accrued. They would be in serious trouble if they didnt.

[Madhatter1]

Well they are not paying me them.

 

A few weeks back I did notices something funny. I worked 27 hours but on the wage slip it showed 26.37. I have no idea how they got the .37 if they work off 15 mins. I assume I lost 30 mins due to 2 days being clocked out a min or 2 before the full hour or quarter too!

 

I did ask my manager about it and he said take it up with payroll. I know I cant take this up if I want to keep my job however could I keep a record of all lost monies to try and claim if I do manage to find another job?

 

Currently I write down all my shift, for example

 

12/05/13 8:50am to 4:42pm = 7:52 hours - 10mins before shift and 12 mins finnish = 7:30 - 30 mins break = 7 hours. Lost 22mins

 

I will be able to prove it with the clocking in system logs. I just dont want to push for it if they can simply turn around and say "we pay in the 15 mins intervals and if work had finished at a certian time this is out of our control" Not sure if I could try and prove the manager purposely made us stop what we was doing midway through a job clock out before the 15 min interval had finished?

 

Personally I believe he is doing it to keep costs down to look good to the big bosses as he is a new and young manager. Its a newish store and its one of there biggest so I know the big heads will be keeping a close eye on things. I mean there are about 10-15 members of staff on at any given time so if all of us are loosing at min 20 mins a day thats a good 3-4 hours a day. saving of £20 multiply this by 500 stores. you see the picture. (I know for a fact other stores do the same) But dont know if all do, this is just a theory

Edited May 12, 2013 by Madhatter1

[renegadeimp]

Doesnt matter how new it is, or how young the manager is. If they are breaking the law, theyre breaking the law.

[Madhatter1]

So, They have to pay me for the amount of hours I do in the week? So if I do 5 x 4 hours and 55 minute shifts they would have to pay me 24.1/4 hours? so all in all I loose 10 mins pay for the week instead of 1:15 mins?

 

What would you suggest I do? Could I keep a record of all missing hours and lodge a claim when I finally get a new job? Or do it while im there and risk getting the boot? (I am still within the period where they can sack me for no reason whatsoever.

 

Thank you

[renegadeimp]

You meed to keep a full record of hours worked and each pay day challenge any discrepancies.

[ericsbrother]

how long have you worked there? If it is over 2 years then you are pretty safe from recriminations so then I would refuse to clock off and make sure that I arrived for work 3 minutes early and not 10 so that I could take my coat off and be ready on time but not start working early. If more than 1 person did this then the message would be clear.

[Madhatter1]

Cool thats all I needed to know. I have not been there for even 3 months so I will just keep a record and when I have located another job I will make a claim knowing I wont face any discrimination.

 

Thank you

[johnny10hands]

When you say your employer 'makes us' come in early, I presume that this unfair and legally questionable tactic is applied to more than just yourself? How does everyone else feel about it?

 

If you're all relatively new (based on it being a new store) why not group together to have an informal discussion to get across how you all feel how unfair it is. You would of course have to stick together.

 

In my view, so long as you are at you workstation at the point that you start to get paid, then there surely cannot be an issue and any attempt to enforce such an unfair ruling would not be in the company's best public image.

 

Sometimes young Managers who lack the experience cannot distinguish the line between being a good Manager and being a bully.

 

I would be tempted (if it was a chain) to anonymously contact HR to highlight the Managers questionable practices. Tell them what store it is but not who you are and state that you are all very unhappy at being taken advantage of and ask them politely what they intend to do about it.

[Madhatter1]

When you say your employer 'makes us' come in early, I presume that this unfair and legally questionable tactic is applied to more than just yourself? How does everyone else feel about it?

 

If you're all relatively new (based on it being a new store) why not group together to have an informal discussion to get across how you all feel how unfair it is. You would of course have to stick together.

 

In my view, so long as you are at you workstation at the point that you start to get paid, then there surely cannot be an issue and any attempt to enforce such an unfair ruling would not be in the company's best public image.

 

Sometimes young Managers who lack the experience cannot distinguish the line between being a good Manager and being a bully.

 

I would be tempted (if it was a chain) to anonymously contact HR to highlight the Managers questionable practices. Tell them what store it is but not who you are and state that you are all very unhappy at being taken advantage of and ask them politely what they intend to do about it.

 

Everyone is completely fed of with it, Many have raised point. One young girl said to the manager in front of all of us the follow " My contracted hours are 20 hours a week and you currently are forcing me to do over 30 my mum said this is unlawful and that I dont have to do it" His reply was " Stop getting your knickers in a twist" and then walked out the room.

 

I have spoke to a few members of staff but all of them say they are to scared to face it becuase they cannot afford the risk of loosing there job.

 

One night I said to colleague that I was starving, This was at 9pm 3 hours after our offical finnish time and she replied saying " My kids must be starving too as they have to wait until I get home" I was completely shocked by this and asked her if she told the manager that she had children depending on her to cook ther dinner etc and she said she did and he wasnt interested and said that it was made clear at the interview that flexablility was needed! Its disgusting behaviour. I understand being flexiable but I would love to know what is lawfully seen as being flexiable?

 

Coming in a hour early oe staying a few hours late now and then as business needs but every single night.

 

At first there was work to be done but now we are getting the deleivery on the shelves before the end of shift and they are still keeping us being to "clean" even though they have a cleaner.

 

Sunday just gone, I was working an afternoon shift, the morning shift had done all the excess stock so there was nothing to put out so we was made to clean and tidy the shelves etc,, to make it look like everything was new on the shelves and still that night we was made to stay an hour over out finnish time even thought there was nothing to do. Everything was completed with 30 mins left on our shift we all said to each other that finally we would get away on time ( vital for some of us as we rely on public transport and its very irregular on sundays around the area) End of shift comes, I ask if I can go home and it was a point blank no, I explained that I needed to catch a train and if I missed it I would have to wait another 2 hours and again he said " You can go when I say" Another hour passed before he let us go, We was litrally just plodding along trying to make work from nothing.

 

It came to 4:55 and he he made us clock out then meaning we will only get paid until 4:45 even after making us work an extra 55 mins for nothing.

 

Now I am used to it and just get on with it, I have given up getting upset and angry about it but I still would like to know what my rights are so if something happens I know what I can or cant do etc

[renegadeimp]

I have spoke to a few members of staff but all of them say they are to scared to face it becuase they cannot afford the risk of loosing there job.

 

The ONLY one at risk of losing their job is this manager. The employees jobs are 100% safe provided they play by the rules.

 

I explained that I needed to catch a train and if I missed it I would have to wait another 2 hours and again he said " You can go when I say

 

You would have been well within your rights to go home. He wouldn't have done anything as he would have been up for a disciplinary for bullying.

 

It came to 4:55 and he he made us clock out then meaning we will only get paid until 4:45 even after making us work an extra 55 mins for nothing.

 

Next time, clock out dead ont he hour and inform the wages department of what is going on. Chances are that none of the senior management know what is happening.

[renegadeimp]

Your basic rights are like this:

 

• You MUST be paid for the hours you accrue if you are on hourly pay. If they dont pay you, then the company can be in serious trouble.
  
• You are 100% entitled to leave after your contracted hours have been completed if you are on hourly pay. Salaried staff have a clause in their contract that states they may be required to work over their hours.
  
• You can work to rule if you like which means you start and finish as your contract says. You do NOT have to come in early or stay the extra time unless you specifically tell them yes. This is normally done under a written agreement called an 'Opt out agreement'. If they say they need you early, then you can go in early and finish early.
  

 

The main thing is that they cannot force you to do otherwise OR discipline you for not complying with their, frankly, bullying attitude.

 

I still think you need to ignore this manager and go straight to the top. Get a collective grievance in, as it seems you have already spoken to the manager and he basically ignored you. This means that the manager has in effect escalated the complaints procedure out of his hands himself.

 

 

Can i ask if you have a union in the workplace? If not, it might be worth calling one up if senior management fail to get this manager under control.

Edited May 14, 2013 by renegadeimp

[Madhatter1]

The ONLY one at risk of losing their job is this manager. The employees jobs are 100% safe provided they play by the rules.

 

 

 

You would have been well within your rights to go home. He wouldn't have done anything as he would have been up for a disciplinary for bullying.

 

 

 

Next time, clock out dead ont he hour and inform the wages department of what is going on. Chances are that none of the senior management know what is happening.

 

I would wait until the hour but he doesnt allow you. Once it was 7:57 and I stood there waiting for it to go to 8:00 and he said clock out now. I replied saying "really I cant just wait" and he replies saying "No you clock out when I say you do"

 

Should I ask for a copy of the warning I got for leaving after my offical finnish time and to challange it? It was written that I have to be flexiable and if I leave without managers permission again I will be fired! That night, I didnt just walk, I aksed the superviosr who told me , he was told not to let anyone go and I explained that I had to pick my son up and that it was actually nearly an hour after my finnish time and he said no so I said I have to go and told him by all means tell the manager.

 

If I do get the counselling "Warning" Notice can I 100% challenge it without risking loosing my job.

 

My biggest worry is, Is they can just end my probation without a reason. So I scared to stand up for what is right becuase even though I am right and they know it they can still get rid of me and I cant afford to loose the job. I will be doing it in the hope that the higher managment have no knowledge and will be on my side or they could be the one calling the shots and shoot me down in an instant.

 

Im sure you understand.

 

With regards to the grievance I will try and get others on board as I know if several of us go forward they wont sack us as like someone pointed out they wont want to backlash from it. But im sure that many wont come forward with me. I could maybe get one this is becuase 99% are students who to be honest probably dont mind staying late so they can get the extra wages.

[renegadeimp]

Have you reported this to senior management yet? What he is doing is bullying.

[Emmzzi]

They can indeed just end your probation. I'd try and get as many colleagues as possible to join a union with you.

[Conniff]

I would wait until the hour but he doesnt allow you. Once it was 7:57 and I stood there waiting for it to go to 8:00 and he said clock out now. I replied saying "really I cant just wait" and he replies saying "No you clock out when I say you do"

 

I'm afraid I would have to agree with that. You have finished your work or at least left the work place so you can't expect to be paid to hang around waiting for the clock to change before clocking out.

[Madhatter1]

Have you reported this to senior management yet? What he is doing is bullying.

 

No not yet, Main reason being is, the manager seems very friendly with the regional manager. Everytime the regional manager is there they seem more then just work mates. They laugh and joke around etc. You can clearly tell they are friends, this is the man who I would have to report it to as he is my managers boss.

 

Im trying to just get on with it and at the moment its not bothering me but I know the minute I need to go on time and he dont let me its going to really upset me and im scared I will say something to him.

 

So ill get warning notice off the manager see what it says exactly (Didnt allow me much time to read it) Can he refuse to give me a copy?

 

At the moment I am just going in putting my head down and getting the job done but each day he niggles a little bit more off me. Keeps calling me "mate" I feel like turning around and saying. Im not your mate im your work colleague so please call me by my name! But I dont I just nod and agree.

 

I did mention this conversation to a few of the others today and they all replied saying they knew it was wrong but what can we do about it. I told them that if we stuck together we could get it fixed and they said that they dont want to do it as even if we succeed we are going to have a hostile working enviroment. A few of the old staff who transferred from another store saif there was another manager who was worse and they had to go to HQ one day to all give statments etc and the manger got off with a warning and still manages. Not sure if he is still up to his same tricks but if we did this and it got noticed. the chances are we would still have him as a manager and although he probably wouldnt do what he is doing I know he will make our life hell in a way that he cant get in trouble for.

 

I wouldnt mind if he gave us notice like we have to from time to time, I understand that sometimes things cant be predicted but every night without notices in shocking and then having the cheek to come back to us saying we all agreed to be flexiable at the interview so we cant moan about it.

[renegadeimp]

Doesnt matter if he is friendly with the regional manager, if the regional manager wont sort it out, then you take it direct to the CEO.

[Madhatter1]

Okies,

 

What should I say and how should I construct it? Im not very good at this stuff. I would sound like im moaning and groaning about being flexible. Im sure you get what I mean.

 

A guidline to work from would be great from the information I have told you. If you have any questions etc to get a better grasp of it please ask and I will happily tell you

[renegadeimp]

You need to write out your grievances and put them in a list. Add on detail as needed.

 

Spend some time on it and do a few drafts.

 

Just don't make the complaint letter too long as it might make the manager think you have a vendetta against the manager you are accusing. You want to keep it short, to the point, and try and keep it neutral without putting emotion into it.

 

If you can, get work colleagues to counter sign it.