Orange threating me with debt recovery companies

[jet2230]

Hi,

 

Hope someone can help me here.

 

I had a 2 year contract with Orange, all was going hunck dory until after my contract ended. My contract end date was 6th Nov 2012, I gave the 1 month notice period of cancelling my contract on 6th Oct 2012. Now after the day my contract was due to end (6th Nov 2012) I noticed my line was still active. I thought nothing of it, I cancelled my direct debit debit online. After a few months in Jan 2013 I get a letter from orange telling me to pay up for Nov 2012 and Dec 2012. I phoned orange and told them my contact had come to an end, they told me its still active, they did confirm that I had sent a cancellation request a month prior to my contact ending but were still insistent on getting money from me.

 

Now the reason they gave me for not cancelling my contract was that I had told them to put my mobile number on a pay as you go sim. Orange said because I did not active that pay as you go sim the contact automatically continued on - even without my authorization. I told him thats the most abused thing i've ever heard and I refused to pay them a single penny.

 

Now they have got a company called 'Moorcroft Debt Recovery' involved. They keep sending me letters to pay up or else... blah blah blah....

 

I want to know if there is anything I can do? I do not want to pay orange as they are just plain thieves.

 

Anyone been thru this situation or can help advice please do so.

 

thanks.

[BankFodder]

How did you cancel - in writing? And do you have a copy?

[jet2230]

How did you cancel - in writing? And do you have a copy?

 

I cancelled by telephone, not in writing. Orange have it written down in their record that I cancelled 1 month before my contract ended.

[BankFodder]

Firstly - for your benefit and for the benefit of others who read this thread - never only rely on phone calls for this kind of thing. You should always confirm in writing. We have thousands of people here who have cancelled contracts with gyms, phone companies, loan companies - everything - and who later find that the cancellation has not been processed and they have no evidence of the cancellation.

 

To cancel anything on the phone, make the call, note the date - get a reference number from the operative and then confirm in writing citing the date and reference number. That way you are reasonably safe.

 

You are lucky that Orange are agreeing that you did cancel. However, I would want to have that agreement in my hand - so I would send them an SAR - which is a nuisance - but it will be your best insurance.

 

Secondly, these people are really obtuse - and Orange is especially big and especially unhelpful.

 

You need to take the fight to them. This will have impacted your credit file as well. I would be looking to have the matter sorted out and a figure in compensation as well.

 

Compensation or no, the only way to settle this with certainty is to issue a claim.

They have breached their contract with you because they are mismanaging your account and also not following the cancellation term of the contract.

Additionally they have breached the Data Protection Act because they have provided inaccurate data to the DCA and no doubt also to the CRA.

 

If you don't want to start a county court claim - then frankly you had better settle in for the long haul because as you are finding out, no one will listen to you and they will throw everything at you. Of course, what they will never do, is to take you to court so that the matter can be decided fairly by a judge.

It is you who will have to do that.

A court claim for this would be easy, fairly quick, interesting, informative and entertaining. You chances of success are better than 95%.

The chances of them settling to avoid a hearing are better than 80%

 

Once the court papers are issued, they will then sit up and take notice and will talk to you like a human.

 

I would suggest asking for £500 in compensation.

[jet2230]

Firstly - for your benefit and for the benefit of others who read this thread - never only rely on phone calls for this kind of thing. You should always confirm in writing. We have thousands of people here who have cancelled contracts with gyms, phone companies, loan companies - everything - and who later find that the cancellation has not been processed and they have no evidence of the cancellation.

 

To cancel anything on the phone, make the call, note the date - get a reference number from the operative and then confirm in writing citing the date and reference number. That way you are reasonably safe.

 

You are lucky that Orange are agreeing that you did cancel. However, I would want to have that agreement in my hand - so I would send them an SAR - which is a nuisance - but it will be your best insurance.

 

Secondly, these people are really obtuse - and Orange is especially big and especially unhelpful.

 

You need to take the fight to them. This will have impacted your credit file as well. I would be looking to have the matter sorted out and a figure in compensation as well.

 

Compensation or no, the only way to settle this with certainty is to issue a claim.

They have breached their contract with you because they are mismanaging your account and also not following the cancellation term of the contract.

Additionally they have breached the Data Protection Act because they have provided inaccurate data to the DCA and no doubt also to the CRA.

 

If you don't want to start a county court claim - then frankly you had better settle in for the long haul because as you are finding out, no one will listen to you and they will throw everything at you. Of course, what they will never do, is to take you to court so that the matter can be decided fairly by a judge.

It is you who will have to do that.

A court claim for this would be easy, fairly quick, interesting, informative and entertaining. You chances of success are better than 95%.

The chances of them settling to avoid a hearing are better than 80%

 

Once the court papers are issued, they will then sit up and take notice and will talk to you like a human.

 

I would suggest asking for £500 in compensation.

 

Thank you BankFodder, I appreciate your concise reply. I am going to go ahead and request SAR wand will then proceed with county court claim.

 

Will I have to pay for county court claim?

[jet2230]

i got his info from the Orange website:

 

6. Your right of access to your personal information

 

If you want, you can always access your personal information. Just make a written request to our Disclosures team at the address below clearly identifying yourself and the information you require. We may charge you £10 to cover the cost of processing your request and supplying your information to you. We will ask you to provide identification to ensure we do not disclose your information to the wrong people. If you tell us that we hold any inaccurate information about you we will correct it at no charge to you.Please write to:The Disclosures Team,Everything Everywhere, Hatfield Business Park, Hertfordshire, AL10 9BW.

 

so this is the address i send the SAR to:

The Disclosures Team,Everything Everywhere, Hatfield Business Park, Hertfordshire, AL10 9BW ?

 

in their description it says they may charge £10, so do I send them £10 anyway?

 

not entirety sure how this SAR thing works

[renegadeimp]

Edit and send http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?417-A-Subject-Access-Request-for by recorded delivery. Enclose a postal order for £10 and make sure to write on the back " For SAR purposes only". Please understand that they have 40 calendar days to supply the information.

 

Im not sure about the address, but i think if you address it to the DATA CONTROLLER, it will get seen and not "passed around" and then lost.

[Bazooka Boo]

Yes enclose the statutory fee of £10 with your request.

And that address looks fine.

[jet2230]

ok thanks guys, will procced with the SAR ASAP

[BankFodder]

Send them the £10 just to avoid any delays.

 

Make sure that you ask for all data in any form and relating to any matter including notes, recordings, screenshots, internal correspondence external correspondence.

 

I would also be a very good idea to call them again - but record the call and see if you can get them to admit that they did receive your cancellation.

 

Add the £10 SAR fee to the claim as it is they who have caused the necessity for it.

Yes you will have to pay for the claim but if you win then you will get the money back.

If they settle then make sure that they cover all your costs.

Also, get a credit report to see what damage they have done to your credit file.

Once you have got the evidence of your cancellation, then send them an LBA.

Lay out exactly what has happened and that you want your account corrected, your credit file cleaned up - not just corrected, a letter of confirmation that they were in error and that they have now put everything to rights plus your compensation.

 

Do not accept a mere promise to put things right. you want evidence that it has been done or else you continue to sue.

 

In the LBA give them 14 days or you will sue. Then sue. Do not get involved in any discussion. Do not delay. Be as good as your word. Don't make threats that you won't carry out.

 

Your claim should be made through MoneyClaim.

 

The claimant had an account XXXXXX wiht the defendant. It was a term of the contract that it could be cancelled with one month written notice.

The claimant gave the required notice but the defendant failed to cancel the account in breach of contract.

The defendant has continued to charge the claimant and has given the file to a debt collector and has unlawfully made a negative entry on his credit file in breach of the Data Protection Act.

The Claimant seeks £50 expenses and inconvenience and £500 in respect of damage to his credit file and credit reputation.

Something like that.

 

Check that your credit file has been affected or else you will have to change the claim and ask for, say, £200

 

Come back here just before you claim and with your proposed wording and we'll have a look

[jet2230]

OK, its quite clear what I have to do now. Thanks guys, will keep this thread updated as progress is made.

[jet2230]

Just phoned Orange and confirmed that I did give my notice of end of contract 1 month before my contract was due to end. The customer service guy insisted that because I requested a pay as you go sim, that automatically ment my contract would carry on until I registered the pay as you go sim card - even without my authorization.

 

got it all recorded. Will post SAR today hopefully.

[BankFodder]

Well done - you had better just check their T&Cs to make sure that there isn't something which you have overlooked.

[jet2230]

Well done - you had better just check their T&Cs to make sure that there isn't something which you have overlooked.

 

 

I've read their T&Cs a number of times, nowhere does it mention anything about activating a pay as you go sim before the contact can be closed... not anything even like it. I've pointed this out to the Orange customer rep's a number of times - they don't seem to care weather or not its in their T&Cs.

 

I've sent off SAR with £10 postal order included.

[BankFodder]

OK.

 

As you have the recording, I suggest that you don't bother to wait for them to respond to the SAR. That will arrive in good time.

 

I suggest that you go right ahead and send them the fully detailed LBA giving them 14 days.

 

Then sue them if they don't respond correctly - which they won't do.

[jet2230]

OK.

 

As you have the recording, I suggest that you don't bother to wait for them to respond to the SAR. That will arrive in good time.

 

I suggest that you go right ahead and send them the fully detailed LBA giving them 14 days.

 

Then sue them if they don't respond correctly - which they won't do.

 

OK, I'll start writing up the lba later on today, will put it up here for review before posting.

[jet2230]

How does the following LBA read like?

[jet2230]

As it has not been possible to resolve this matter amicably, and it is apparent that court action may be necessary, I write in compliance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

 

The following a summary of the facts of the dispute:

 

1. I gave one month's notice to end my mobile phone contract – this has been proven many a times with my dealings with the Orange customer representatives. I also have a recording confirming this as evidence.
   
2. According to Orange's terms and conditions on section 4.1 http://studio.orange.co.uk/mobileterms/pdfs/PAYM-Terms-and-conditions-for-the-supply-of-Orange-Network-Service-28-September-2010.pdf - it clearly states my rights to terminate this Contract – to which I have fully complied.
   
3. I requested a pay as you go sim before my contract with Orange ended – I received the pay as you go sim card but I did not activate it.
   
4. I received a letter dated 3rd January 2013 (2 months after my contract end date) stating my service has been suspended due to no payment received – this was a surprise to me as I thought my service had already been cancelled.
   
5. I have been told by Orange's customer representatives that I needed to have activated the pay as you go sim card in order for my contract to have come to an end – I can not find this information anywhere in the Orange’s Terms and Conditions. I was also unaware that I needed to have activated the pay as you go sim card in order for my contract to come to an end (non of the other mobile operators have this condition).
   
6. My contract was continued after the contract end date, without my authorisation or consent – merely because I did not activate my pay as you go sim. An Orange representative said “By me not activating my pay as you go sim card, we assumed you wanted to carry on with your contract” - I have a recording of this conversation as evidence.
   
7. I received another letter from Orange on 8th January 2013 reminding me to pay the overdue bill.
   
8. I received another letter on 17th February 2013 informing me that my service has been disconnected upon my request. This letter was from the Orange collections department.
   
9. I received another letter from Orange collections department on 24th February 2013 requesting that I pay the bill which is overdue.
   
10. On 20th March 2013 I got a letter from Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited informing me that they have been instructed by Orange Personal Communications to collect the overdue Debt.
    
11. On 11th April 2013 I got a letter from Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited informing me that possible litigation action could be carried out if the overdue payment was not made. The latter stated “Neither we not our client want court proceedings to be issued and it is still possible for you to avoid this by agreeing a repayment plan that you can afford and maintain”.
     
     
    

My account has been mismanaged and you have breached your contract terms by not following the cancellation term of contract. I am also assuming you have breached the Data Protection Act possibly by providing inaccurate data to the DCA and also to CRA – I will find out once I check my credit report.

 

 

I am requesting a compensation of £500. I want my account corrected, and if my credit file has been damaged I want that cleaned up. I want a letter of confirmation that you were in error and that you have put everything right.

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 14 days.

 

 

Should I not receive a response to my letter within this time frame, then I anticipate that court action will be commenced with no further reference to you.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

 

does it read ok? any suggestions to improve it are welcome.

[BankFodder]

As it has not been possible to resolve this matter amicably, and it is apparent that court action may be necessary, I write in compliance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

 

The following a summary of the facts of the dispute:

 

1. I gave one month's notice on date to end my mobile phone contract – this has been proven many a times with my dealings with the orange customer representatives. I also have a recording confirming this as evidence.
   
2. According to Orange's terms and conditions on section 4.1 http://studio.orange.co.uk/mobileter...ember-2010.pdf - it clearly states my rights to terminate this Contract – to which I have fully complied.
   
3. I requested a pay as you go sim before my contract with Orange ended – I received the pay as you go sim card but I did not activate it.
   
4. I received a letter dated 3rd January 2013 (2 months after my contract end date) stating my service has been suspended due to no payment received – this was a surprise to me as I thought my service had already been cancelled.
   
5. I have been told by Orange's customer representatives that I needed to have activated the pay as you go sim card in order for my contract to have come to an end – I can not find this information anywhere in the Orange’s Terms and Conditions. I was also unaware that I needed to have activated the pay as you go sim card in order for my contract to come to an end (non of the other mobile operators have this condition) and this requirement is not in your T&Cs.
   
6. My contract was continued after the contract end date, without my authorisation or consent – merely because I did not activate my pay as you go sim. An Orange representative said “By me not activating my pay as you go sim card, we assumed you wanted to carry on with your contract” - I have a recording of this conversation as evidence.
   
7. I received another letter from Orange on 8th January 2013 reminding me to pay the overdue bill.
   
8. I received another letter on 17th February 2013 informing me that my service has been disconnected upon my request. This letter was from the Orange collections department.
   
9. I received another letter from Orange collections department on 24th February 2013 requesting that I pay the bill which is overdue.
   
10. On 20th March 2013 I got a letter from Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited informing me that they have been instructed by Orange Personal Communications to collect the overdue Debt.
    
11. On 11th April 2013 I got a letter from Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited informing me that possible litigation action could be carried out if the overdue payment was not made. The latter stated “Neither we not our client want court proceedings to be issued and it is still possible for you to avoid this by agreeing a repayment plan that you can afford and maintain”.
    

My account has been mismanaged and you have breached your contract terms by not following the cancellation term of contract. I am also assuming you have breached the Data Protection Act possibly by providing inaccurate data to the DCA and also to CRA – I will find out once I check my credit report.

 

 

I am requesting a compensation of £500. I want my account corrected, and if my credit file has been damaged I want that cleaned up. I want a letter of confirmation that you were in error and that you have put everything right.

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 14 days.

 

 

Should I not receive a response to my letter within this time frame, then I anticipate that court action will be commenced with no further reference to you.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Fine - except that you must check your credit file before sending this or doing anything else. You must know the extent of the damage caused to you before proceeding

[jet2230]

Fine - except that you must check your credit file before sending this or doing anything else. You must know the extent of the damage caused to you before proceeding

 

OK, just requested my credit report from Experian. They say I should get it within 5 days. After I have checked I will proceed accordingly.

 

Thanks.

[locutus]

Orange used to send a PAYG sim and the number automatically transfers to that once it is put into a phone and turned on, and that is when your pay monthly contract ends.

 

The downside of this is they will say they informed you of all of this when you requested to cancel.

 

It will come down to their word against yours IMO and I don't think you will have much to back you up. Did you request copies of calls in your SAR?

 

You can register with noddle for a free credit report aswell

[jet2230]

Orange used to send a PAYG sim and the number automatically transfers to that once it is put into a phone and turned on, and that is when your pay monthly contract ends.

 

The downside of this is they will say they informed you of all of this when you requested to cancel.

 

It will come down to their word against yours IMO and I don't think you will have much to back you up. Did you request copies of calls in your SAR?

 

You can register with noddle for a free credit report aswell

 

If Orange have proof they did inform me of this then it's fine, I won't have a problem with retracting my claim - as it's nowhere to be found in their T&Cs. Yes I did request for copies of calls in SAR.

 

Orange have tried telling me (over telephone conversations) that the sim card they sent to my house had instructions to active it otherwise my contact does not end, apparently this is their justification for continuing my contract without my consent - this obviously is a lie as the sim card arrived with no such instructions.

 

To be honest if this is Orange's way of doing business with their clients then its quite absurd.

[locutus]

You need to know what their argument is going to be to be able to counter that. I have no doubt that they didn't make it clear, If they had said "you need to activate that sim to finalize your cancelation" you would've followed that instruction.

 

The big BUT is what have you got proof of to give to a judge? What proof that the telephone reps have said there was a letter?

 

My advice is keep off the phones and keep everything in writing.

 

Please keep in mind if you are taking Orange to court over this, You need all the proof and corroborating correspondence that you can get to sway this in your favour. Bankfodder thinks you have greater than 95% chance of success in court. If you keep your head and get the facts in writing, there is little they can do other than fold. Don't give Orange the ammunition to decrease your odds.

[BankFodder]

If it is not in the T&Cs at the time you made the contract - then it is unenforceable.

Don't worry about anything they say in relation to SIM cards if it is not made clear at the time you entered into the contract.

 

If they try to introduce new terms about cancellation at the time you actually cancel, those terms will not have any effect.

[jet2230]

Just checked my credit score on noddle (thanks locutus) - it says my credit rating is 1/5. Under 'financial account information' I can see 'lender' Orange it says payments upto 3 months late and has 'late payment' in red. I think due to this my credit rating has gone down the drain.