IRCAS advice: urgent

[Jo22]

Hi everyone, first time poster - been looking all over for help!

 

In February I was told by a ticket inspector on the bus that I didn't have the correct ID for my oyster card

(I have half price travel and had left my photo card at home), and asked for my details

saying I would have to pay a penalty.

 

He then phoned whoever it is they phone and gave them my details. He didn't give me anything before I got off at my stop.

 

I was intending to appeal the decision as my photo is on my actual oyster card as well, so it's obviously mine.

 

However, I received nothing in the post and assumed that I hadn't been issued a penalty after all

- especially as I had received nothing from the inspector after he made his phone call.

 

Then a month later I got a letter from IRCAS saying that Transport for London had given me a Penalty Fare Notice

and that as I had not appealed within 21 days or payed the reduced sum of £40, I have forfeited any right to appeal and have to pay £80.

 

I sent in an appeal anyway, with the picture of my oyster card and my photo card. They predictably wrote and told me I was too late to appeal.

 

I wrote telling them that I didn't receive a PFN from TFL or anything from the inspector.

They are telling me that I did.

I asked them for proof of posting and they said it's not their responsibility to get it because it was sent from Transport for London.

 

I have contacted TFL and asked for proof of posting -nothing yet.

 

It seems so unfair to have to pay £80 when I would have happily paid £40 had my appeal failed

- if I had the chance to appeal! They've said I have to pay by 8th April.

 

Please advise.

 

Thanks!

[Bazooka Boo]

Stand by your guns, don't fall foul of these cowboys.

 

It WILL be up to them to prove that they sent the penalty, this will be needed if they want to take it further and pursue legal action.

[Jo22]

Thank you for your reply. I'm planning on sticking to my guns but obviously it's making me nervous.

 

What if they did send it and it got lost in the post? How would I prove that? Or is it supposed to be recorded delivery or something?

 

Although... the letter I got from the Independent Appeals Service said that I not only received the original PFN, but also a reminder some time after. No I didn't! How likely is it that TWO letters would have got lost in the post?

[firstclassx]

Stand by your guns, don't fall foul of these cowboys.

 

It WILL be up to them to prove that they sent the penalty, this will be needed if they want to take it further and pursue legal action.

 

 

Not if they cancel the Penalty Fare and prosecute instead, using Byelaw 18, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

[Jo22]

So you think I should pay the £80, despite being given no information of how to appeal, or to whom, or how much to pay?

[Jo22]

Doesn't Byelaw 18 only apply to Rail?

 

Also, there was no fare evasion involved. My fare had been paid.

[firstclassx]

Doesn't Byelaw 18 only apply to Rail?

 

Also, there was no fare evasion involved. My fare had been paid.

 

Sorry misread. Your ticket was still, nevertheless, invalid, because you did not carry all mandatory parts of the ticket/pass.

 

The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990 doesn't apply to your specific situation.

 

London Buses do have Byelaws, but I'm not sure they cover fare irregularities. I will have to check later.

[Jo22]

So, would it be better if I paid the £80 on Monday and forgot all about it?

Genuine question!

There seem to be two separate instances here: 1) I was not carrying the correct ID with my oyster card; 2) I wasn't given any details about the penalty, the appeal process or the reduced sum until it was too late.

 

If I don't pay on Monday won't they just add on extra fees? Give me a bad credit rating? Send round the bailiffs?!

Alternatively, if they prosecute, won't I have to plead guilty as it's a strict liability offence? Or are there exceptions?

[Bazooka Boo]

They cannot affect your credit rating, and unless this ever went to court, and they won, THEN you failed to pay what the judge ordered, they MIGHT be able to instruct court certified bailiffs.

 

I say stick to your guns, and tell them that you won't be paying the increased fine, because you never received anything until this letter landed on your doormat, and as a gesture of goodwill you are prepared to pay the reduced fine of £40.

 

And lodge a formal complaint too.

[Jo22]

I've offered to pay the £40 to IRCAS. They're having none of it.

Who do I lodge the formal complaint to?

Thanks for all your help.

[Bazooka Boo]

http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/#

 

Have you put that offer in writing?

 

If not do so, this will help with your complaint.

 

https://www.ircas.co.uk/appeals/

[Jo22]

All my communication thus far has been via email.

Would a written letter make the difference?

Cheers.

[Bazooka Boo]

Email is perfectly fine.

 

You can, if you wish, reinforce your offer by writing, it won't do any harm.

But get making those complaints, this is just wrong on every level, a simple mistake and no educated discretion applied.

[Old-CodJA]

Stand by your guns, don't fall foul of these cowboys.

 

It WILL be up to them to prove that they sent the penalty, this will be needed if they want to take it further and pursue legal action.

 

It will not be up to TfL to prove that they 'sent' any penalty fare notice. It will be up to TfL to prove that a Penalty Fare Notice was issued to the traveller.

 

Penalty Fare Notices are issued at the time of travel and the alleged offender has 21 days in which to pay, or submit an appeal

 

These are normally paper notices, handed to the person reported at the time of the journey. The technology does exist to allow notices to be issued in electonic format using a hand held recorder, but these always capture the signature of the traveller. I'm not sure if these are in general use on London Buses, perhaps someone who has direct experience can let us know.

 

If there is a prosecutable case here, then the TfL record, and that of IRCAS will produce the evidence in any Court action.

 

The traveller will normally have signed the notice at the time of issue and a copy of that will be produced and sent to the traveller with the Summons.

 

Reminder letters are sent although the transport provider is not obliged to do so, if the alleged offender does not pay or successfully appeal within 21 days of issue, TfL could cancel the PFN and go straight to Summons.

[Jo22]

Thanks.

 

I didn't sign anything because I wasn't given anything to sign.

 

Where do I stand? As I said, I have been told to pay by Monday 8th.

[Jo22]

Also, I had no details given to me regarding the appeal process.

[Old-CodJA]

If you are certain and remain genuinely adamant that you were not issued a Penalty Fare Notice you should not pay anything and await the issue of a Summons, then plead 'not guilty' and have TfL's evidence tested in Court.

 

You may need to seek qualified legal advice once you receive the Summons.

[Jo22]

If that happens, will the qualified legal advice cost more than £80?

I really don't want to end up worse off.

 

I am adamant I didn't receive a penalty fare notice, just an inspector telling me he was going to issue one. After he had made the phone call he asked me where I was getting off, I said 'the next stop' (which was my stop) and he glared at me until we got there. He didn't give me anything.

[Chickensandparsnips]

It will not be up to TfL to prove that they 'sent' any penalty fare notice. It will be up to TfL to prove that a Penalty Fare Notice was issued to the traveller.

 

Penalty Fare Notices are issued at the time of travel and the alleged offender has 21 days in which to pay, or submit an appeal

 

These are normally paper notices, handed to the person reported at the time of the journey. The technology does exist to allow notices to be issued in electonic format using a hand held recorder, but these always capture the signature of the traveller. I'm not sure if these are in general use on London Buses, perhaps someone who has direct experience can let us know.

 

If there is a prosecutable case here, then the TfL record, and that of IRCAS will produce the evidence in any Court action.

 

The traveller will normally have signed the notice at the time of issue and a copy of that will be produced and sent to the traveller with the Summons.

 

Reminder letters are sent although the transport provider is not obliged to do so, if the alleged offender does not pay or successfully appeal within 21 days of issue, TfL could cancel the PFN and go straight to Summons.

 

TFL revenue staff use electronically printed Penalty Fares generated from a handheld PDA with special realtime software that send all PF's to their prosecutions team immediately, likewise with the IRCAS checks, these are electronically sent from IRCAS to the inspector in real-time via the Personal Digital Assistant. London Buses RPI staff don't require the signature from any passenger during issue of a PF or Irregularity Report for consideration of prosecution as they are not cautioned. Remember their are different rules and by laws on buses compared to the railway so obviously the RRA etc doesn't apply.

 

From what the OP has said if he/she got off the bus during issue then as long as they were informed a penalty fare was being issued then TFL believe they have complied with their own rules. TFL bus RPI's do not have powers to detain, again this is not like the railway where is provision in law to allow passengers to be detained. If the OP got off during issue of any PF that was being printed, that is the fault of the OP not TFL as they failed to collect all required information before getting off.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Chickensandparsnips

[Jo22]

Can I have practical advice please? As I said, the £80 is due on Monday, or there will be further charges.

I didn't receive anything from the ticket inspector.

How am I supposed to prove that?

[Chickensandparsnips]

My advice is to pay it. They could just proceed to a magistrates court to proceed the case which would then be more detrimental to you than £80.

[Chickensandparsnips]

In regards to proof you can ask for a subject access request to CCTV on the bus if it is still available from the bus operating company. This will cost around £15 but you may find that this is now unavailable as it is wiped on a 2 week cycle usually.

[Jo22]

Even if I win?

Or are you saying there is no way I could win?

[Jo22]

I doubt I'll be able to get CCTV evidence by Monday, even if it still exists.

[Jo22]

Why would the magistrates court be more detrimental?

Sorry, to be a pain.