Former ATOS Nurse Apologises...

[estellyn]

I also think that the bar was set too high - I would have added to the support group descriptors, that if a claimant scores in excess of say 25 or 30 points, then that's an automatic support group too, as the combination of lots of different problems can make it as impossible to work as having one very severe problem.

 

And for WRAG, well the bar is definately too high for entry to WRAG, too many sick and disabled people are falling through the cracks of being considered too able for WRAG and not able enough for JSA. AS osdset says there really is no support if you have a chronic condition. If the government really wanted to help they could put resources into re-education and training, they could offer incentives to companies to take on home workers with chronic conditions who couldn't work in an office environment (like me ), and lots of other stuff too. But as this whole exercise is not actually about getting sick and disabled people into jobs they can do, but is about taking money off of the most vulnerable in society, none of these types of things will happen.

[**Margaret**]

Points for the support group:?:

 

It's a personal niggle but;

 

The next person who asks whether I know how many points are needed for the support group ...... .

However, 'tis a reasonable question from someone who's new to the complexities of employment and support allowance.

 

Margaret.

[estellyn]

Points for the support group:?:

 

It's a personal niggle but;

 

The next person who asks whether I know how many points are needed for the support group ...... .

However, 'tis a reasonable question from someone who's new to the complexities of employment and support allowance.

 

Margaret.

 

Not entirely sure what you're saying. My point was that changes should be made so that a high enough points score on the WCA should put someone in the support group - at present it doesn't, which means that some severely disabled people who don't fit in with one of the very specific support group descriptors are consigned to WRAG.

[osdset]

In my opinion it had potential to be a good idea.

 

A good implementation would have been to use WRAG for short term conditions that are fully expected to heal such as a broken leg. Those in the WRAG be offered counselling service (if mental issues), therapy services, training, jobs reserved for them like working from home jobs, and so on.

 

If any doubt whether someone is expected to heal or not they would be put in SG, if the doubt is there make it short term SG eg. 1 year (not something silly like 3 months), anyone who is clearly not going to get better I would expect to have a mininum of 3 years before reassessment.

 

eg. if I was offered voluntary training for jobs I think might be a worth a try without risk of loss of benefits if it didnt work out I would consider taking it up. A especially important issue is the lack of special treatment on job vacancies. eg. now they treating this with fear, they tell people to do what they say such as the work programme and taking placements that would clearly make the health worse and not work rather than preserving working from home jobs for the vulnerable. Remember the government is the biggest employer in the country. The NHs etc. will have jobs that could be done from home. The fact this isnt been done means they dont care about any of that, they just want less people on benefits full stop. I do expect WRAG to be eventually discontinued as well, the argument will be the people in WRAG have successfully been doing work related activity and as such are fit for work.

 

The system already caters for that situation, it's called the assessment period, most breaks will heal within 13 weeks. WRAG should be for those that have significant health problems that disengage them from the workplace, BUT are not serious enough to be placed into Support Group.

[**Margaret**]

:estellyn:

 

Completely agree with your point.

 

Unfortunately many new, or reassessment, claimants don't understand why 30+ points don't get them into the support group. Info about a second set of descriptors for the support group seems to be in a very deep black hole.

 

Where I live we've a dearth of welfare rights advice. Cue, appeals along the lines of; 'can't understand why I'm in the work related activity group cos I got 30+, or in one case 40+, points'!!!

 

Margaret.

Edited September 26, 2012 by **Margaret**

[estellyn]

:estellyn:

 

Completely agree with your point.

 

Unfortunately many new, or reassessment, claimants don't understand why 30+ points don't get them into the support group. Info about a second set of descriptors for the support group seems to be in a very deep black hole.

 

Where I live we've a dearth of welfare rights advice. Cue, appeals along the lines of; 'can't understand why I'm in the work related activity group cos I got 30+, or in one case 40, points'!!!

 

Margaret.

 

Yes it really isn't explained well, and of course the people getting the high point scores are very unwell/disabled, and wonder why they have to do 'work related activity', or only get cont based wrag for a year.

[worried33]

The system already caters for that situation, it's called the assessment period, most breaks will heal within 13 weeks. WRAG should be for those that have significant health problems that disengage them from the workplace, BUT are not serious enough to be placed into Support Group.

 

Disagree.

 

If its serious enough to be disengaged then you should be in SG and have no requirement to do any work related activity. If WRAG removed that requirement then I would be inclined to agree with you 'maybe'.

 

It sounds like you saying if you not well enough to work WRAG is fine but if you more serious then you get treated properly.

 

Also some people such as nystagmite get an ESA 50 before the 13 week period ends. So the assessment period may not even last that long if someone is assessed quickly and found fit for work.

[debt4get]

all of us in the system agree it is nonsense....but i can see where this is going....once they have 'dealt with' all the wrag group by forcing them into 'work placements' then i foresee the day when SG will then be 'asked' to attend WFI in order to 'assess' what they may be capable of in terms of 'some work' there will be no differential, remember 'even a paraplegic can work' this is a real long term strategy, and may take many years before us older claimants either die or manage to get retirement....which is i believe the govt' agenda

it is the next generation that i feel for...if they become ill as a lot of people will...if they are working from sunup to sundown...and find their is no support available for them....as it was all removed during condems period of power..

[osdset]

It sounds like you saying if you not well enough to work WRAG is fine but if you more serious then you get treated properly.

For a start I don't believe anyone on ESA whether it's SG or WRAG gets treated properly, my point is that WRAG encompasses to many people with varying conditions, I have COPD which disengages me from my trade as a carpenter, but I could do a desk job. Ah but I also suffer with frequent episodes of involuntary unconsciousness, so how is that desk job sounding now? Would anyone employ me under those circumstances? I'm willing to give it a go if an employer will.

 

So should I be in SG? No of course not, have I got limited capability for work? I would say yes, Am I incapable of work? No, so where does that leave me then? The government says WRAG, and for the time being that's where I will stay.

[worried33]

For a start I don't believe anyone on ESA whether it's SG or WRAG gets treated properly, my point is that WRAG encompasses to many people with varying conditions, I have COPD which disengages me from my trade as a carpenter, but I could do a desk job. Ah but I also suffer with frequent episodes of involuntary unconsciousness, so how is that desk job sounding now? Would anyone employ me under those circumstances? I'm willing to give it a go if an employer will.

 

So should I be in SG? No of course not, have I got limited capability for work? I would say yes, Am I incapable of work? No, so where does that leave me then? The government says WRAG, and for the time being that's where I will stay.

 

In my view its not just down if you can do something, its also down to if you employable. If you not employable you effectively cant work. Also factor in to do a desk top, you have to be able to get to that desk to do the work, and attend job interviews to get the job. You also have to be reliable to avoid getting the sack. If anyone fails any of these requirements they shouldnt be in WRAG.

[estellyn]

In my view its not just down if you can do something, its also down to if you employable. If you not employable you effectively cant work. Also factor in to do a desk top, you have to be able to get to that desk to do the work, and attend job interviews to get the job. You also have to be reliable to avoid getting the sack. If anyone fails any of these requirements they shouldnt be in WRAG.

 

Very true. The current system completely ignores the fact that there are no jobs for people with a lot of conditions - no one is going to employ them in their current state of heath/disability. So this whole lie about 'getting people out of the benefit trap' is a load of crap, its only about reducing the welfare bill - by targeting the most vulnerable and least able to defend themselves. I expect eventually a case to go to the court of human rights - maybe cpag has some judicial reviews on its to do list. It certainly falls under disability discrimination.

[Pandorica]

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting. It's good to know that some people will still make a stand for what's right, even if it costs them their job.

 

Last month, I went through the whole ATOS horror and have been living on tenterhooks ever since. The nurse I saw was lovely. He was genuinely concerned for me and even cut the medical short because he thought I wasn't fit to continue it and that he could get any further information he wanted from my application form.

 

I'd already read the countless stories about people who'd been seen by "really nice" doctors and nurses who'd still been denied ESA so I wasn't hopeful. Amazingly, I seemed to pass their test and have been awarded ESA and placed in the Support Group. I say amazingly because I have a friend who's every bit as incapable of work as myself but who was declared fit for work. Amazing also as the bulk of my own claim rested on mental illness and I know that government bodies especially, don't give much credence to that.

 

Sadly it seems to be a case of sheer luck whether you get approved or not and that is unutterably WRONG! I don't wish anyone the agony of that medical - even if conducted by someone who seems to be human - and the constant stress of the long wait afterwards, not knowing what's going to happen to you.

 

I expect eventually a case to go to the court of human rights - maybe cpag has some judicial reviews on its to do list. It certainly falls under disability discrimination.

 

Estellyn, it's interesting that you mention the court of human rights because I recently read that someone - from Canada of all places - has made a formal enquiry to the International Criminal Court in the Hague, accusing several ministers of the government of "crimes against humanity" in the way the sick and disabled are treated re: ATOS and the DWP. I can't post links yet (because this is my first post here) but if you copy and paste the following in Google: blacktrianglecampaign international criminal court - you'll find the story. It's the first link in the search results.

 

It makes interesting reading. I for one hope it's successful.

[worried33]

This is why I think I will be found fit for work as my medical wasnt cut short.

 

The feeling I have is they decide before the medical if someone is fit for work or not, everyone going to a medical they are expecting to fail and the medical is just to find a reason for the person to fail, but there is a few such as yourself who still get onto ESA via a medical but usually in that situation the medical is cut short and abandoned.

[osdset]

The feeling I have is they decide before the medical if someone is fit for work or not, everyone going to a medical they are expecting to fail and the medical is just to find a reason for the person to fail, but there is a few such as yourself who still get onto ESA via a medical but usually in that situation the medical is cut short and abandoned.

 

My take on this is that unless a claimant has a 100% watertight claim that the HCP cannot possibly find fault with, it's a definite fail, there is no grey area or benefit of the doubt given. Having said that I'm sure many cast iron claims have fallen foul of the 'must fail quota'. The HCP's do not have to answer for their actions unless their actions go against DWATO policy, so they can pretty much do as they please so long as it involves awarding less than 15 points.

[estellyn]

This is why I think I will be found fit for work as my medical wasnt cut short.

 

The feeling I have is they decide before the medical if someone is fit for work or not, everyone going to a medical they are expecting to fail and the medical is just to find a reason for the person to fail, but there is a few such as yourself who still get onto ESA via a medical but usually in that situation the medical is cut short and abandoned.

 

Mine wasn't cut short, it was about an hour, and support group result. Also I've had lots of clients where assessment was cut short due to pain, anxiety etc and still scored 0 points.

[worried33]

Mine wasn't cut short, it was about an hour, and support group result. Also I've had lots of clients where assessment was cut short due to pain, anxiety etc and still scored 0 points.

 

thanks it gives me some hope then.

[debt4get]

personally i wouldnt read anything into the length of time you spend at the assessment....i honestly think its luck on the day, either you are in the quota for that day or 'you are fit for work'

[Mr lex]

SCOTS nurse Joyce Drummond reveals how thousands of genuinely ill people were set up for a fall before they had even been assessed by benefits firm Atos.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nurse-makes-heartfelt-apology-after-1340838

[Conniff]

Those are very serious accusations she is making there, I hope she can back them up.

[sadone]

Did you not see the two recent docs on ESA assessments then?

[Conniff]

No I didn't, but if you have a link please I would love to.

[DanWhitely12]

What was the result of this ?

[Pandorica]

personally i wouldnt read anything into the length of time you spend at the assessment....i honestly think its luck on the day, either you are in the quota for that day or 'you are fit for work'

 

Yea. I'll agree with that. To be completely frank, I was incredibly worried that the medical was cut short and tried to protest that I could continue with it. There were a number of things my partner hadn't told the nurse about and I've been worried sick about it... untill I got the letter saying I'd made Support Group.

 

I really don't think it matters because, one of the resaons I was so worried that it was cut short was because I'd known of someone who'd also had the medical terminated early because he was in a lot of pain - yet he was found fit for work. I really think it's a combination of sheer luck as to who both conducts the medical and who makes the final decision. Whether or not you need the benefit isn't the depending factor as to whether you get it. Which is plainly made of wrong!

 

Naturally I'm relieved for myself but I'm sick at heart for others, especially a close friend of mine who is completely incapable of finding work yet hasn't been awarded ESA, and is living on severely minimised benefits till she can find a job - which she won't. Nobody's going to employ her. Assuming there were jobs out there for her to apply for in the first place!

 

What the hell is this country coming to?

[RaeUK]

So, is that two members of the Site Team that failed to notice my thread on this very same story, started a mere 4 days ago? Keep your finger on the pulse, chaps ...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?366539-Former-ATOS-Nurse-Apologises...%281-Viewing%29-nbsp

 

[MARTIN3030]

Ah yes.

Ok will merge the 2 with the credit title going to you.