Tracing a county court judgment at least 12 years old

[trfh]

Folks,

 

I am acting for a friend, whom I will call Marjorie (not her real name). If I tell you she is in the ESA support group that will tell you that she has major problems - mostly mental, some physical.

 

She has recently received a note from Philips Bailifs claiming they have a distress warrant for a court fine, from Kingston upon Hull county court. The amount claimed is £430, which is well beyond her means to pay - much of this is bailiff's fees, of course. She left Kingston upon Hull in 2000, so its looking like either the court case is at least 12 years old, or was done in her absence, and Philips have only just caught up with her at her current address (which is in Herefordshire!).

 

As a first step we want to find out what the court fine was levied for - if its genuine, and this isn't just a case of mistaken identity. Marjorie has no recollection of any such case, and certainly no previous paperwork relating to it. We have no date for the court hearing, and no court references of course.

 

We have already run an on-line search at Trust Online. That turned up a clean record, but they say the CCJ register only goes back six years. Furthermore, we only searched at her current address - and she has any number of old addresses, most of which she can't remember......

 

Any ideas on how we trace this court judgement - given the very few facts to go on? I have already written to Philips asking for a copy of the court judgment, and they have replied with a standard letter just setting out the circumstances they will lay off the heavy stuff. Not helpful - though I shall write to them again anyway.

 

The other angle is to establish Marjorie as a "vulnerable person" - and I am getting a note from her GP to do that. That will doubtless stop Philips in their tracks, but we would like to deal with the matter once for all - if possible.

 

 

Richard

[citizenB]

You should be able to find if there is a Judgment by searching trust online... link below.

 

It will cost £4.00 I think.

 

http://www.trustonline.org.uk/

 

HTH

[citizenB]

Darn, sorry.. I missed that you had already checked trust online, so ignore that post.. !!

[citizenB]

I will send out a couple of S.O.S alerts for you.

[unclebulgaria67]

Did she live near Kingston upon Hull (KUH) ?

 

It would not be the county court for a court fine, but the magistrates court. If it were the magistrates, was she issued with some form of motoring offence ticket ? Was she driving in the area at the time ?

 

The magistrates telephone number for KUH is 01482 384 496.

 

Perhaps give them a call to see if they have records for a fine registered against her, by providing the name and address she had at the time.

[unclebulgaria67]

I would think it is a magistrates court fine and not a CCJ, as mag court fines will be chased for ages and ages. A CCJ that had not been paid, is unlikely in my opinion to be chased by Phillips this late in the day, as for CCJ's the claimant normally has 6 years to enforce it by whatever means.

[lookinforinfo]

You really need more information from the bailiffs. Not least a sight or copy of the Warrant. Then you will see the date of the warrant and the address to which it refers.

I cannot see why bailiffs are so reluctant to produce a copy of the warrant unless they have something to hide.

 

Explain the circumstances to the bailiffs and ask for a copy of the warrant along with notification of her illness thus qualifying her as a vulnerable person.

[unclebulgaria67]

Phillips by the way are also just normal debt collectors, but they send out letters which also notes that they do bailiff work also.

[cerberusalert]

Philips have the contract with Hull City Council to collect liability orders. Is it possible it's Council tax arrears?

[trfh]

Did she live near Kingston upon Hull (KUH) ?

 

It would not be the county court for a court fine, but the magistrates court. If it were the magistrates, was she issued with some form of motoring offence ticket ? Was she driving in the area at the time ?

 

The magistrates telephone number for KUH is 01482 384 496.

 

Perhaps give them a call to see if they have records for a fine registered against her, by providing the name and address she had at the time.

 

 

I don't know exactly where she lived at the time. This is the problem - we don't the know date of the court judgement, and she has no records of where she lived when, so you can tracing this is difficult. She certainly lived somewhere in the Kingston-upon-Hull area in 2000 (and before).

 

It won't be a motoring offence, because she can't drive. More likely non-payment of a TV licence.

 

I will try ringing the court tomorrow - thanks for the number - but without an address to give, you can see its going to be difficult. All we have is her name and current address - and the one before that, also in Herefordshire. Part of the problem is that she was attacked by a burglar some four years ago, and beaten around the head with an iron bar. She was lucky to live. But the result now is that her mental faculties are not what they were, so trying to remember addresses from 12+ years ago is beyond her.

 

 

Richard

[trfh]

You really need more information from the bailiffs. Not least a sight or copy of the Warrant. Then you will see the date of the warrant and the address to which it refers.

I cannot see why bailiffs are so reluctant to produce a copy of the warrant unless they have something to hide.

 

Explain the circumstances to the bailiffs and ask for a copy of the warrant along with notification of her illness thus qualifying her as a vulnerable person.

 

 

Well, I have a nasty feeling its in the interests of the bailiffs not to play ball. I've read somewhere (but can't now find the quote) that when you are notified of some court action that you have no knowledge of you have 21 days to go back to the court, and sort things out - and if you do that, the bailiffs are entirely removed from the loop. So they get paid absolutely nothing for their trouble. To me that suggests they have a vested interest in not being helpful, so that the 21 days elapses.

 

I've already sent a fairly long letter to Philips the bailiffs setting out the situation, and they have responded with a standard letter saying that we are "in dispute of the above arrears". And they will only accept such a dispute if we can prove that either Marjorie is bankrupt (she isn't), or she has made the payment (she hasn't, since she has no idea who or what to pay), or the recipient has died (!), or the recipient is in prison (!!), or she (Marjorie) is suffering from a physical or mental illness.

 

We aren't necessarily disputing the arrears - we just have no idea whether there is any case to answer. We can almost certainly get a GP's letter to set out Marjorie's mental state........but why should we have to do that? I suspect that Philips have no paperwork at all to back up their claims, and are thus just playing for time - and not expecting to get stiff opposition.

 

Clearly the K-U-H court should be my port of call. I've already emailed them - and had the email bounce - due to the address being unknown. I will ring the court tomorrow as someone suggested, and see what they have to say. But given we have no idea what Marjorie's address was at the time, I'm doubtful whether they will be able to trace it.

 

 

Richard

[trfh]

Did she live near Kingston upon Hull (KUH) ?

 

It would not be the county court for a court fine, but the magistrates court.

 

 

You are absolutely right. I have just looked again at the paperwork from Philips, and they do mention that it is the magistrates court at K-U-H. So I will try them tomorrow.

 

thanks a lot

 

Richard

[citizenB]

So really, you do need Phillips to provide you with a copy of the paperwork.

[trfh]

Philips have the contract with Hull City Council to collect liability orders. Is it possible it's Council tax arrears?

 

Yes, it might be council tax arrears - we really have no idea at all. I presume the case was conducted in Marjorie's absence (because she had moved away) and she heard nothing about it, and only now are the bailiffs catching up with her. Assuming of course they have the right person......

 

Richard

[cerberusalert]

You may be better contacting Hull Council to see if there is an outstanding liability order, if there is they can call off the dogs;

 

Local taxation

Hull City Council

PO Box 15

Hull

HU1 2AB

 

Tel: 01482 300 300

Text phone: 01482 300 349

Fax: 01482 613 562

Email: ctaxsr@hullcc.gov.uk

 

An email would be better as the 300300 number is in fact a call centre.

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes, it might be council tax arrears - we really have no idea at all. I presume the case was conducted in Marjorie's absence (because she had moved away) and she heard nothing about it, and only now are the bailiffs catching up with her. Assuming of course they have the right person......

 

Richard

 

If it is council tax arrears, the magistrates court are unlikely to have any details. The Kingston-upon-Hull magistrates only rubber stamp lists for liability orders for the council.

 

Contacting the court without the address is likely to be fruitless. As someone suggested, ask Philips to provide evidence of the debt that they are chasing. Point out the mental health state caused by injuries sustained in a robbery and that the person that they have written to can't even remember where they lived in 2000, let alone remember any debts.

[tomtubby]

Sorry, but I have been away and had only noticed this post this morning.

 

This is alsmost certainly an unpaid Magistrates Court fine. There is NO statutue of limitation on court fines and therefore they can be pursued after this period of time.

 

However, it is possible that the FINE may have been imposed after the house moved.

 

You need to ring the court and if this is a fine that your friend does not know about then it is a simple matter of saying to the court that your friend needs to swear a Statory Declaration. This will stop all enforcement and the bailiff fees will be removed.

 

A new summons will then be sent to your friend at his or her current address thereby allowing for him to defend the action.

 

Please post back to let us all know what the outcome is from your call to the court.

 

PS; The bailiff company are under contract with HMCS to enforce Distress Warrants. They cannot stop enforcement unless told to do so by the court.

[trfh]

Yes, thanks for all the comments and ideas. I have now rung Philips, and managed after much argy-bargy to get a reference number for the court action - something that the court was likely to understand.

 

I then rang K-U-H magistrates court to find out what this is about. Apparently an unpaid TV licence fine back in 2001 after Marjorie left the area. Worse than that, the fine was actually being paid through deduction from benefits - then something went wrong with these payments and it went back to court. Only this time the court had lost touch with Marjorie because she had moved. The benefits people knew perfectly well what was going on, and apparently did nothing to prevent all this chaos.

 

Anyway, we are now going to get a statutory declaration sworn, and then re-start things.

 

thanks for the help everyone,

 

 

Richard