A Call for Evidence - We Need your Parking Signs !!

[citizenB]

Many private parking signs use unclear wording and bad layout, meaning they are likely to mislead motorists. The signs are sometimes so bad they breach the British Parking Association's notorious code of practice for approved operators, but the BPA seems to discipline very few companies for bad signage.

 

 

 

Martin Cutts of Plain Language Commission is gathering evidence of good and bad private parking signs and documents as part of a report he'll present to the Government about how the British Parking Association is failing to police its code of practice. He's also been challenged by the BPA to provide evidence of bad signs and documents being used by its members.

 

 

 

He needs clear close-up photos of signs used by BPA private members (nearly all will show the BPA logo) all over the UK. It will help if you can also provide context photos showing where the signs are positioned and whether there are entry and exit barriers. So if you have a private car park near you that's operated by a BPA member, eg at supermarkets, motorway services, shopping centres, tourist hot-spots, please take the best close-up photos you can of the signboards, including the detailed terms and conditions, and email them to Martin at privateparkingsigns@gmail.com[/font]> (no spaces)

 

 

 

There's a typical example of a poorly worded sign in the Plain Language Commission newsletter, downloadable here:

 

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/plcdev/home/sfusion/htdocs/staging/new.clearest.co.uk/public/system/files/139/original/Pikestaff_57_.pdf

 

 

 

Examples of words that Plain Language Commission experts consider unacceptable on private parking signs include fine, penalty, offence, Regulations and Authority but even if you don’t see these, please still send the photos. Often the language and get-up of a sign is simply unclear and this is equally prohibited by the code.

 

 

 

Please give the following details when sending your photos:

 

 

 

1 Your name and contact details (only in case Martin needs to verify something)

 

2 Date of photo

 

4 Location of sign (eg, name of shopping centre or superstore)

 

5 Name of BPA member unless it’s clear from the sign

 

6 Name of landowner if known

 

7 Any other comments

 

 

 

As regards documents, Martin wants parking charge notices and letters from private parking companies and their debt collectors and solicitors. Please send scans or PDFs to Martin at (no spaces)

 

 

 

Your name and contact details are required for verification only. Your personal information will not be used for any other purpose or shared with any third party for any reason

 

 

There's no deadline as this work will continue, but anything you can send by the end of August 2012 will be especially helpful.

 

 

 

Martin’s postal address for any paper documents is Plain Language Commission, 29 Stoneheads, Whaley Bridge SK23 7BB.

*** NEW ADDRESS TO SEND EMAILS TO **

 

parkingsigns@consumeracti ongroup.co.uk - (no spaces)

Edited August 30, 2012 by citizenB
added text

[keefyboy]

I have got 2 lots of parking signs to be brought to Martins Attn but when I try to send him the emails get returned is there another email address for him please

Keith

[citizenB]

Oh.. sorry to hear that.. I will try and find out if there is another address

[citizenB]

privateparkingsigns@gmail.com (no spaces)

 

 

You are closing up the gaps in the email addy above, yes ?

 

 

 

*** NEW ADDRESS TO SEND EMAILS TO **

 

parkingsigns@consumeracti ongroup.co.uk - (no spaces)

 

Edited August 30, 2012 by citizenB

[citizenB]

Keefy,

 

I did a test send to the email address above, with a copy to Martin Cutts.

 

His reply is as follows :

 

For reasons unknown, Google has disabled the address privateparkingsigns@gmail.com

 

 

I have protested but not had a reply yet.

 

Feel free to tell people, through adding to the thread if necessary, that we’ll inform them through the thread that we’ll give a new email address when we can.

 

Kind regards

Martin

Martin Cutts | Research Director | Plain Language Commission

 

 

*** NEW ADDRESS TO SEND EMAILS TO **

 

parkingsigns@consumeracti ongroup.co.uk - (no spaces)

Edited August 30, 2012 by citizenB

[keefyboy]

Ok CitizenB, now I know why they bounced, what I will do then is print them off and send them to him snail mail....... as one of them is a great example of ((&)PR$%

[Old Snowy]

Oi Moaner!!

 

Try this one instead: mail AT clearest dot co dot uk - adjusting it to meet mail usage.

 

Make sure you put "Private Parking Sign" in the subject line - Martin has suggested this as an alternative.

[keefyboy]

Thanks Old Snowy, with the Help of CitizenB I have managed to get it through her to Martin and had acknowledgement from martin himself....

 

I will keep this email for future if I have problems.... thanks for your help......

 

It was while compiling "Another moan" at the council that i came across one of the signs by pure accident....... and a second one I have sent him is a great example of confusing language used.... must have been made in China..... their translations are often a good laugh...... but I will admit we do have some confusing words ourselves... and we speak english..........xa[ohpbew;gp so next time I am out in my wheelchair I will a Car Park hunting a GO to find some more signs........

got to keep up my image and reputation... I bet one County Council curses everytime they find a letter from me........lol......

[citizenB]

**** URGENT MESSAGE ***

The email specifically set up for the receipt of emails containing the parking signs appears to have gone on strike. All emails sent up to midnight 10th August are irretrievable. It is understood there are 30 emails that Martin cannot get his hands on. So would those people who have kindly responded please resend to the following email address.

parkingsigns@consumeractiongroup.co.uk (no spaces)

Thank you

[citizenB]

*** NEW ADDRESS TO SEND EMAILS TO **

parkingsigns@consumeractiongroup.co.uk - (no spaces)

[citizenB]

Martin thanks everyone for their contributions, please keep them coming.

[keefyboy]

Thanks CitizenB for the new email address, I have got another car park to do when I get the chance to get there.......

[citizenB]

Martin Cuts will be giving a talk on Thurs - 6 September 2012 @ 6.30pm about signs (see pdf attached). All the images that have been supplied to him will be incredibly helpful

There’s a link to this on the website:

http://www.clearest.co.uk/news/2012/8/28/cutts_to_address_sign_design_soc,_6_sept

We’ve also revealed a secret British Parking Association email that shows how its senior officials misled the government about the number of motorists being taken to court by private parking companies. (The BPA said the courts were dealing with up to a staggering 90,000 cases in 2011 but the true figure turned out to be only 49, of which the companies lost 25.) The ruse helped to get the law on ‘registered keeper liability’ changed. The story is at

http://www.clearest.co.uk/news/2012/8/17/secret_email_shows_how_government_was_misled_in_law_change_bid

...and readers can obtain the full correspondence between the BPA and Plain Language Commission, which includes the BPA email, through a link from the story.

 

September 2012 Martin Cutts.pdf

[keefyboy]

Surely this law change could be challenged by reason of the figures given by the BPA lying on the actual amount of cases taken to court only being 49, not 1100 as they stated. Then they used wording deliberately misleading people about the figures they got from this alleged survey....... and after checking some of these signs myself, even such companies working for Sainsburys use signs that have such small fonts that I could not read it and had to ask my wife to go right up to the sign to see what it said.... and as for holding the reg keeper responsible for another person getting the PCN.

 

If I wrote to DVLA and told them that I did not agree to make my details available to anyone other than authorised bodies ie, police or Local authorities, would they have to comply???

[citizenB]

Thanks CitizenB for the new email address, I have got another car park to do when I get the chance to get there.......

 

Sounds promising

 

As for your other questions.. I havent a clue, I am just the "middle man" so to speak

[Nev Met]

Surely this law change could be challenged by reason of the figures given by the BPA lying on the actual amount of cases taken to court only being 49, not 1100 as they stated. Then they used wording deliberately misleading people about the figures they got from this alleged survey....... and after checking some of these signs myself, even such companies working for Sainsburys use signs that have such small fonts that I could not read it and had to ask my wife to go right up to the sign to see what it said.... and as for holding the reg keeper responsible for another person getting the PCN.

 

If I wrote to DVLA and told them that I did not agree to make my details available to anyone other than authorised bodies ie, police or Local authorities, would they have to comply???

 

You need to get your facts right from the outset as guessing (and guessing wrong) damages the credibility of your complaint.

 

So, here we go............

 

The BPA told the DVLA that it's members took between 2-5% of all private parking tickets issued to court. It was the DVLA who converted that percentage range into figures based on the 1.8 million private parking tickets issued annually.

 

In the Impact Assessment therefore the DVLA faithfully regurgitated the 2-5% range and came up with the 36,000 to 90,000 figures (simple maths). Those percentages and resulting figures are featured twice in the IA (pages 6 and 9).

 

The FOI requests to the MOJ however winkled out the truth. 845 cases listed on the small claims track of which only 49 went to a full hearing before a district judge. It's worth bearing in mind that the PPCs will only take dead certs all the way to a full hearing and as you may be aware, the BPA members lost half of those 49 dead certs.

 

Just rewinding a little bit, the 2-5% range was indeed given to the DVLA in an email under the title of AOS Operator Survey Results - hardly anecdotal, informal and off the record conversations with Dft staff as Patrick Troy would now have us all believe.

 

Next, you can indeed ask the DVLA to only release your data to the authorities and not to private companies. They will of course refuse but that doesn't matter, it's yet another complaint from an ever more clued up and awakening motorist and the DVLA are getting a little bit windy about the whole process.

[keefyboy]

Thanks Nev Met for that update, its an eye opener to say the least and just shows the lies that these companies will go to to "Bend" the truth a little bit in their favour to help them "scare" innocent motorists into payuing them these trumped up fees.

 

Now another question, at one of our NHS hospitals the parking company is displaying signs which are headed "Contractual Agreement" about the parking, does anyone know if these conditions are enforceable or is another ruse to get you to pay..........

 

This subject is very interesting and since I have become involved in it and I find myself checking the parking signs wherever we go.. and a lot of the same names creep up. One such area in our town has a new development (travelodge) which had to be built without any parking, and the planning permission was granted on those terms, the premises has now opened and so far I have photographed 3 different occasions when vehicles have parked on the public footpath outside by entering through driving on the pavement on the premises next door to get around to the travelodge. (We did object to the planning permission when it was first advertised but as usual we were ignored). The reason for building was given as for all the extra people who will need accomodation for the upcoming Olympics, but the premises didn't open until a couple of weeks before the Olympics and the only people who came here were the GB Team to pickup their kits. They have arranged alternative parking nearby but this means in bad weather they have to walk in the rain etc to the hotel. So therefore they are not getting many patrons I bet.

The building neext door is accomodation for students and a restaurant, lately the restaurants patrons have started parking on the pavement, which is marked quite clearly by Curtledge studs in the ground. Things have got so bad that the other day there were 4 cars side by side which left no room for me in my wheelchair to get through on the pavement. this ment that I had to go back to the Traffic lights go down the drop kerb and ride along the road lanes to get to the dropped kerb behind these cars to get back onto the pavement, which upset a few motorists. There is big parking signs on the walls saying they cant park without a valid permit (staff scribbled on a bit of card is the norm) but they do not say anything to their patrons..... so more pickies taken ready to forward onto council for enforcement....