Recorded conversations with my bullying boss - should/can I tell my employers?

[SuperJon]

Hi there,

 

I've had quite a torrid few months since I developed a disability(ankylosing spondilitus) and have been off work since whilst the Rheumatologists try their hardest to get me back on my feet(literally) again.

 

My manager hasn't be great at all - he has always had a habit of saying things that fall way short of reasonable and it was no surprise that he started to stick the boot in to me at our keeping in touch meetings.

 

Anyway, a long story short, after being treated like 'you know what' for months and missing out on a promotion possibility as work failed to tell me that my Manager was being made redundant - I decided, for the first time in my life to put in a grievance. I'd spoken to several agencies and they all agreed that I had a good, strong case to go to tribunal if I wanted to.

 

Well, the grievance hearing has come and gone and I've, surprise surprise, been told that there is insufficient evidence from my employers perspective. I'm now considering taking it to the next stage.

 

After my first 'keeping in touch' meeting, my Manager said so many blatantly outrageous things that I decided to record any further conversations for my own protection. It's not something I feel great about to be honest but I'm glad I recorded at least some of the conversations because it clearly demonstrates the ongoing and persistant discrimination and harassment I've had to put up with.

 

However, and here's the dilemma, I've NOT told my employers that I have some recorded conversations where he has clearly demonstrated disregard for me and my condition. Now they have knocked back my first grievance I'm really not sure what I can do(if anything) about revealing that I have this evidence.

 

Any advice would be fantastically helpful.

[madari]

Hi,

 

If you value your job then you will keep quiet about the recording, your employer has already demonstrated to you that they are more interested in protecting the Company then its staff by dismissing your grievance.

 

How do you think they will react to your secret recordings?....they will consider you to be a trouble maker.

 

Also remember that tribunals favour the employer more than the employee.

 

Google the leading case of: Aziz v Trinity taxis 1988 court of appeal

 

Good luck

[postggj]

as stated

 

its not cricket to record conversations without the other persons knowledge.

all trust between the employer and employer goes out the window

only use the recordings if you are at an employment tribunal stage

 

does your company have an occupational health provider and do you know if your condition has been confirmed that it prob falls under the equalities act 2010, old disability discrimination act

Edited June 20, 2012 by squaddie

[bradkb]

Not knowing a legal side of this, but my own personal approach would possibly be - transcribe the recordings of key areas, then use these key areas as "quoting xxx saying..", then when it comes to taking the grevience further, you could use your "notes" as part of your complaint. After all, you recorded them for your benefit while being able to use them to jog your memory to complete your notes on the events?

 

Or is that still close to the line?

[Emmzzi]

Let's start with

a) what are you trying to achieve

b) what adjustments do you need

c) what steps have you taken to get them

 

It's rarely great to go into work as combat.

 

I understand you are frustrated about not hearing of the promotion opportunity. Having been off work for sometime myself I can tell you the last thing I needed was more responsibility when I needed to concentrate on my health. Is this at all possible for you? Is it the right time for a promotion? Is that really the issue or are you just annoyed with boss?

[SuperJon]

Hi there,

 

With regards to my condition then yes, been through the occupation health and they have confirmed that my condition is classed as a disability under the Equalities Act 2010.

 

With regards to recording the conversations then, as I said, I don't feel great about doing this but I'd asked him to stop talking bull but he continued - once he was given notice of redundancy then it got even worse. Not sure in these circumstances what else I, or anyone for that matter, could do and I'm the sort of person that stands up in the face of a bully!

[Emmzzi]

ok, but what adjustments do you need, and what are you trying to achieve? What does your best result look like?

[lbruk]

OK,

 

Recorded conversations are very touchy subjects! However there are ways you can use them to your advantage.

 

By transcribing the conversation, you can ask questions like "In the meeting on xx/xx/xx you said 'blah blah blah' didn't you?"

 

This way you can work out whether they can tell the truth or they are going to lie through it. Should this go to a tribunal then you have evidence that they have lied, one lie invariably leads to another to cover up that lie etc etc.

Do not under any circumstances say "i have this recording and unless you do as i say i'm going to sue you!" or words to that affect! That is an instant breakdown in mutual trust and is a fair and reasonable reason to dismiss you.

 

So you have it, use it to your advantage, but don't disclose to them you have it.

[SuperJon]

ok, but what adjustments do you need, and what are you trying to achieve? What does your best result look like?

 

Hi Emmzzi - I guess for me this is quite a tough question. I am a Departmental Manager so I've been a real advocate of the brand(part of a FTSE250 company employing around 16,000 employees) but this has really made me question what sort of company they are. As part of my grievance I asked what training they had in place for understanding the Equalities Act and managing long term sickness in the workplace - they have nothing. Despite what others have said - I feel I have genuinely been robbed of a promotion possibility because I took redundancy from another company before working at the next level up from what I am doing now. I'm not saying that I would have got it for a second but, regardless of my condition, it would of been nice to have a try. I haven't treated anyone of my people like this in the past and the way they have treated me just goes against the grain. I think I'd ideally like a transfer if possible or for us to have an amicable divorce so I can get on with my career! I work on the basis of 'treat others how you'd want to be treated' but my employers have fell well short here.

[Emmzzi]

That still doesn't answer my question. Do you need any adjustments to be able to work, and have these been made or not? If they have it matters not one fig if they have trained peopl or not. You are getting bogged down in what you feel is morally right, not what the law says. Take a step back. There is also no right to be invited to apply for jobs at all.

 

Have you actually asked for a transfer?

 

Have you actually asked for a compromise agreement?

 

What do your union say?

 

Are you back at work yet? How long does the doctor say it will take? Have you seen occ health?

[lbruk]

Its not up to the employee to suggest adjustments, its up to the employer to facilitate adjustments that "may well" alleviate the symptoms of the disability. Of course if you can suggest that always helpful, but all you have to do is tell the employer 2 things:

a) That they have a disability (or the employer to have constructive knowledge of it)

b) how that is affecting your ability to do your role.

 

Its up to the employer to work out how they can adjust your role to alleviate your condition.

[postggj]

i agree on the above

 

thats why you have an occupational health department

 

There is also no right to be invited to apply for jobs at all.

 

 

well their is if the employee is at risk of ill health retirement through their disability

the employer has a duty to look at every department within their company to find a sutable vacancy

that includes possibility of demotion if it allows the employee to still work for the employer.

it is called reasonable adjustments, Equalities Act 2010

[Emmzzi]

to clarify.

 

there is no right at all to be invited to apply for promoted positions.

 

An employer is not psychic and can't work out what adjustments are needed without knowing how the condition affects the employee. As an employee the easiest way to help is to explain what you need. But heaven forbid we are pragmatic.

 

Rather than being pedantic, why don't we wait for his answer on how his health is before getting miltant about "rights"? He may be nowhere near an IHR. Rights are only really useful if you can't reach an amicable agreement and are willing to burn bridges.

[postggj]

thats why you have an occupational health department to take that responsability off employers to a degree

 

most employers have them now, even outsource such as ATOS for example

Edited June 21, 2012 by squaddie

[Emmzzi]

OP has seen occ health but hasn't said if adjustments were suggested and if his employer has or hasn't made them.

[postggj]

agreed

[lbruk]

again, its not necessarily up to Occy Health to suggest adjustments. That ultimately is the managers decision, they can take advice from a number of sources, Occ Health, HSE, HR etc etc, but if they have the information, then it is up to the manager to act on it.

[Emmzzi]

lbruk - rubbish. Apply logic! The manager has no medical expertise so how would they decide what to do? They can decide if what is required is "reasonable" but it's not up to them to make cackhanded ignorant suggestions!

 

You don't work in this field, do you? And I am not sure how you are helping the orignial poster.

[lbruk]

Unfortunately - Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

The Equality Act states nothing about how the information is obtained, or who it is from. Only that it is up to the EMPLOYER (ie the manager) to decide what they can/will/wont put into action. It is not up to OH or a GP to put a reasonable adjustment into practice, although the world might be a better place if they were!

 

You do not need medical expertise to see that someone in a wheelchair needs a ramp to get over a small fixed area that is raised. It is exactly the same principle applied to all Reasonable Adjustments within the Equality act.

Don't be so dismissive of other people's advice, you are the one that brought up adjustments.

[Emmzzi]

I'm getting really annoyed with you being pedantic and I'm going to withdraw as none of this is helping the OP. There is logic, and there is good practice, and wherever I have worked, we have done both. What matters, however, is helping the OP get the best result he can, from the position he is in. Bickering on minor points of law will not achieve that.

[madari]

I am With EmmZZi on this ....Calm down and please dont withdraw as that does not help anyone......Deep breath!!!

[postggj]

even if the employee has been to occupational health, gp, etc

 

the employer does not have to accept these findings and can still do as they see fit.

 

even if the condition is likely to fall under the DDA now equalties act

 

it is then up to an employment tribunal to decide if any protected characteristics have been breached

 

i am at an employment tribunal stage now myself on just this issue after being forceable medical retirement without making any reasonable adjustments

[lbruk]

I think we still need an answer from the OP for what they actually want out of this.

 

If it is a transfer, then depending on how that works in the company it could possibly be reasonable for that to happen.

 

In regards to the promotion, as said before the employer must open the promotion up, and not dismiss your application for promotion because they don't think you can do it because of your disability. But if the promotion was there for you to apply, but you didn't, then that is not within the employers power to know you were going to apply for it. If however they did know, and didnt consider you because of your disability, then your case could become slightly more complicated.

 

(apologies to any other poster that i have offended, i am not sure what i said to cause such a reaction)

[postggj]

i must disagree slightly,

 

if a promotion oppertunity arises then people with protected characteristics and the employer knows about this, should be told

 

say an employee if finding working on their feet is detramental to their health and has been confirmed.

 

if that vacancy involves sitting down, dont you think that would be reasonable adjustmants and the employee told

 

what about a women on maternity leave, do you not think she has every right to apply for a vacant position even though not at work

 

that position may have flex working attached to it ref child care

 

its all protected characteristics

[Emmzzi]

squaddie, if all positions are open resourced then yes, but there is no law that says they must be. An employer can look at the succession plan, hire their son, whatever - as long as it is not exclusion BECAUSE of the protected characteristic.

 

Now it often may be but you try proving it in court! So in reality, that law isn't easy to apply.