PPI Claim with missing paperwork and older debt

[carled]

Hi there. I've tried searching for this circumstance and I can't find anything that seems to be a direct match. I am hopeless at searching though, so many apologies if this has been covered before.

 

I had a car payment plan loan from Alliance and Leicester in September 2000. As this was a while ago, the application was phone based. I remember the phone call clearly as I got stressed out by the operative insisting I needed to take PPI out as it was a "new type of loan" even though I told him my employment circumstances meant I was fairly much self-employed and not really suitable for PPI.

 

I know I had ppi on the loan as I still have a secondary sales letter from A&L congratulating me on taking out PPI on the loan and asking if I wanted to also take out some additional insurance (which I didn't).

 

I wrote to the A&L (well, Santander now) and they've just brushed me off saying there is no record of this loan as it was paid off more than 5 years ago and they've deleted all records. This was a significant loan (£11K-ish) and the payments for ppi were substantial. Am I in a no-win situation here as I have no actual loan paperwork? I don't truly believe for a minute that there is no computer record of my loan with Santander but I have no way of proving this, obviously.

 

I'm presuming I'm going to be unable to proceed here, but would appreciate any input that people may have just so I know for sure. Thanks.

[ims21]

Hi

 

We know that, despite their denials, some banks retain information far longer than they let on.

 

If it were me I'd send a Subject Access Request (SAR) to them. There is a template for SAR in the CAG library, the link to which is at the top of every CAG page in green. Add a line that says the SAR is to include copies of all and any agreements you have ever had with them.

 

Cost is £10 and they will have 40 days to comply.

 

No guarantees but this should really be the starting point.

 

ims

[carled]

Thanks for that. I have found the relevant SAR letter now. I originally wrote to them with this:

Over the years I have been a customer of yours I have had several loans. I am writing to request a copy of the credit agreement for all loans I have had with you under sections 77−79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Please let me know if this request requires payment to cover your administration costs. I would also like to request a copy of the terms and conditions that were applicable to the accounts at the time of the various agreements.

And they just sent me details on two later loans I had with them. I rewrote several times telling them there was another loan account from late 2000 and sent them a copy of their letter to me referring to the PPI agreement I'd taken out as mentioned in my original post above, but they most recently wrote back saying "we have investigated your complaint fully and can confirm that we are unable to locate any account held by us with the details you have provided. I must point out that our company only deals with motor finance and therefore we are unable to assist further with this request."

 

As this was a car purchase plan I'm chasing them about, it seems an odd way to end the letter. Would the SAR have more teeth than my original request or will they now just stick to the "we don't have that account any more" story do you think?

[ims21]

Hi

 

A SAR is made under the Data Protection Act.

 

It may well be that due to the passage of time and the fact that this loan was paid off then they may have destroyed the data.

 

A SAR may reveal some useful info. As I said, no guarantees but if you can punt a tenner on it then it may be worthwhile

 

ims

[Madge67]

Hi carled, Im in exactly the same boat as you with regards to old A&L loans and also have no paperwork or reference numbers. I did send an SAR to Santander but got nothing back im afraid. I hope you have more luck that i did. Im trying to find a reference number via old bank statements so im having to SAR our bank now - Im determined to cover every possibility with this - like you the loans were not small amounts so dont want to give up just yet.

 

I think what makes it harder in these cases is the fact that santander took them over so the records are even harder to get hold of. im sure its just a case of CBA though 'cant be ar5ed').

[Madge67]

Has anybody had any luck with obtaining records older than 6 years from Santander/A&L,

 

Im really not sure what to do next.

 

I could start Court Action to obtain this info, but with the situatio re Santander taking over, Im not sure if what they are telling me is true or not (I Know I know - I can almost hear you saying 'i cant beleive you just said that') I just dont want to waste time and mooney pursueing womething that isnt there.

 

Oh gosh please help!! I know for a fact I had PPI on my old loans.

 

Madge

[carled]

The story so far. I had an old loan with A&L (Aug 2000) and was told I had to have PPI as it was a new kind of loan. I don't have any details of that loan any more. Since then I've had two further loans with them, neither with PPI. I do have records of those loans. I wrote to A&L and they told me that they only had details of two loans, neither with PPI. I wrote back saying there was another and they told me they only dealt with motor finance and I must be mistaken. I wrote again and insisted I was right, it WAS for motor finance and the loan was with them, they wrote back again telling me they only dealt with motor loans and obviously my loan was with someone else. I wrote again and included a copy of the secondary insurance sales letter they'd sent in October 2000 about my loan and they then replied saying that although the loan was with them (no apology of course!) they had no record of it any more as it had been paid off more than 6 years previously. I wrote again with an SAR as detailed above and they sent my cheque back with a letter saying they had disclosed all they had on record. I then discovered an old Experian credit report that showed the loan details and sent them a copy of that and as proof I had the loan and also the secondary sales letter saying that loan had PPI as proof that I had both a loan and a PPI agreement and asked them to send me a final response if they didn't want to deal with it as I could then go to the ombudsman.

 

Their crowning glory ? They just responded and said I had no PPI on my loan with them, and as proof they included details of? Yup, you guessed it, the two other loans again... I cannot believe they can be so dense...

 

I am now on my eleventh letter to them asking them for a "final response" on the proper loan so I can go to the ombudsman. I think that even though I don't have the loan agreement, I have proof of the loan (A&L letter AND the credit report showing the loan) and I have proof there was PPI on the loan (A&L letter) so I would think that on a "balance of probablilities" scenario, the ombudsman shouldn't have much problem with establishing that I had PPI and a loan...? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

[ims21]

In view of the protracted correspondence I would forget the final response bit.

 

Lodge a formal complaint with fos on two counts....a) that they are attempting to frustrate the process and not treating you fairly and b) the actual PPI complaint itself.

Edited July 15, 2012 by ims21

[carled]

Thanks IMS21, I appreciate your input and guidance.

[carled]

Blimey... what a phone call. I decided to try and just get to the bottom of the stupidity before going on to the ombudsman and called the A&L/Santander PPI complaints line. I did get through to a human being too!

 

So... we started off by referring to their recent letter referring to the wrong loans (again) and she said that they would have been unable to find reference to any other loans I had in the past. She then asked what the account number was of the loan, I told her I didn't have it, but I'd sent in evidence of PPI and the experian report. She said they hadn't got those documents! After a fair few minutes of to and fro, we got to a point whereby I frustratedly asked if there was other information they held and mentioned the SAR I'd sent before. She said they'd have searched by customer account number and there had been nothing else. However, if I had the loan account number, that would help. Hang on... you said in an earlier letter that all records had been deleted and were gone? Now what's this? She went on to say that loans older than 6 years are stored by their account number, not the customer one (sounds like bullpoo to me) but in saying that, she'd admitted that they DID hold older information and that if I just provided the correct number, all would be revealed. I pointed out that they *must* have a link to customer account number on the loan and she said that they did, but it was only searchable by loan account number... again, sounds like rubbish, they'd have it all cross-referenced. I pointed out that this was quite a serious admission after sending back the SAR I'd sent stating there was nothing else on file and at this point her attitude changed.

 

She then tried the angle of stating that as it was car finance it was a different department and I needed to call another number. I pointed out that she'd got the other car payment plan loan on her computer, so why not the one I was complaining about? It was exactly the same product! "Must be because it's an older loan" she said. Not sounding very convinced herself.

 

She then asked if I had proof of PPI - again I pointed out I'd sent this in on the 1st July. She said their current case reference number was started on 6th July and then she made the mistake of referring to a letter I'd sent on the 1st July (earlier in the call she said she had nothing from that date) and I pointed out that if she had that letter, she had the proof. After a few minutes of fumbling around with "I'll just see if I can bring up the attachments" she admitted she had the scans I'd sent in and then asked which loan on the experian report I was complaining about (there was the old one with ppi and a newer one without). She then asked if I had proof of having made any payments on that loan! I pointed out the experian report with no missed payments on a settled loan...

 

She then said, "I'll get your case reviewed then and get them to look at that loan instead of the other two". So quite where I've got to now, I'm not sure, but it appears that Santander are not being entirely honest in their dealings with PPI complaints to me.