Landlord Deposit Dispute

[3011busyyear]

Details: private tenants paying £695 per month, deposit £795 in DPS scheme.

 

Lived at property for 18months. No major issues during tenancy. Initial 6month tenancy then extended for a year. Gave two months notice as requested by landlord. Moved out almost two weeks ago.

Initial inventory done by letting agent. Exit checkout done by landlord. Dispute us cleaning thoroughly and having carpets cleaned professionally he was not happy at the checkout meeting and attempted to ask us for more money to have carpets recleaned. We declined handed the keys back and left it in'agree to disagree' position with mind to contact DPS.

Original agents came the following day and their report states some minor cleaning issues but overall fine. Landlord not happy with this.

He has since emailed a spreadsheet of further things, 2 chipped tiles £100, water damage to kitchen work tops £100, missing plugs in some sinks £10, plus general cleaning. His report goes into far more detail than the original inventory so we are unable to say if there was a chip in a particular tile or scuffs in the front door for example, he has photographs but they are such close ups of a scratch for example that it is hard to say if it was always there or not . All totalling £663 subject to him getting quotes. We have offered £110 as a good will gesture in light that he probably could get the carpets slightly cleaner around the edges, he has declined this. Until he fets his quotes he is refusing to give a disputed figure to submit to the DPS for arbitration.

I hope this is enough information. My feeling is that he wants to do up the house for sale and wants us to foot the bill for works that don't need doing to meet our tenancy agreement. Should I wait for him to get his quotes, or do I just put the whole amount into dispute on the basis that he is already estimating most of our deposit before the quotes come in.

What is so frustrating is we feel we were good tenants, and went to great lengths to move out and clean over 4 days, my scrubbing the oven at midnight the day before moving obviously was a waste of time as he is claiming £45 for this now! We have photos of rooms in general but he has been round after we handed keys back taking minute detailed photos, I can only assume he didn't 'ammend' anything.

Given the agents exit report, our good will gesture offer and constant correspondence do you think we are in good stead? Also could someone please outline what would happen if he tries to claim more than our deposit, that money us all we had in savings and we couldn't afford any legal costs.

[AndyOrch]

Hi Busyyear and welcome to Cag.

 

I think your query would be better placed in the Residential and Commercial Lettings forum.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[blitz]

How detailed was the inventory? The check-in and check-out must be comparable and objective. If you can post some example of items he is claiming for and how they were listed on the inventory shall help in the advise offered. Thanks

[3011busyyear]

Hi thanks for responding,

The original inventory just listed for example:

Bathroom- shower unit, white sink and toilet good condition clean condition. His report says plug hole dirty, plug missing from sink, floor sticky, smears on mirror.

Washing machine (brand name) Good condition working. For this he has listed the inside of the drawer(where the powder goes) is dirty.

Kitchen- this just lists the general fittings and either new condition-worktop or good/average condition. His report lists 2 tiles chipped, 1 tile without glaze (how do you even remove glaze from one tile!), oven dirty, water damage on work tops needs replacing, and again floor sticky, scuffs on the door needs repainting.

 

There are some really bizarre things too, A cobweb in the garden! Windows smeered/ dirty... Yes cleaning them in torrential rain was not going to result in sparking results!

 

Our goodwill gesture was based on things like the mirror smears and sticky floors, all evidence that we had cleaned but as the agent report stated some areas may have been missed.

 

He is currently refusing to submit a disputed amount to DPS until he has quotes for all his planned works. Should I just keep the ball rolling and put the whole amount into dispute so avoid more delays. His quotes are irrelevant surely as the kitchen tiler will quote to replace tiles not state if they need replacing in the first place which is the issue of the dispute. His estimates are pretty much the whole deposit anyway!

Would the DPS look at his history or is that against data protection or something, I'm certain he's bullied other tenants into settling, would be interesting to see how many deposits he's returned in full.

Will the DPS simply try to strike an amount in the middle of his quote??!?! Sorry for the waffle, feeling the stress now!

Edited May 2, 2012 by 3011busyyear

[3011busyyear]

Just to add also that the property has now been let again, so we clearly had not left it in such an unfit state that it was inhabitable!

[3011busyyear]

Anyone got anymore thoughts on this? As you can see by this late post it's playing in my mind!

[mariner51]

Claim for prev T damage does not mean property uninhabitable, nor unfit for future letting, nor is LL obliged to repair.

 

I think blitz was asking for descriptions from both move-in and move-out inventories

eg work top, move in = good condition, no obvious signs of damage, accepted by LL, move-out = fair condition to which LL has included water damage. If LL did not personally conduct move-out inspection he prob has right to check & modify within a reasonable time. If property was relet quickly, it is poss new Ts move-in report was used as your move-out one or vice versa.

In any dispute resol, LL will have to state why water damage justifies work top replacement eg did water cause worktop to swell?

If missing plugs were noted for same sinks on both inventories and LL cannot show they were replaced by him during T, then no claim IMO.

If LL will not consider DPS APR before obtaining estimates, then I would withdraw your offer of 'goodwill' in writing and keep full deposit in dispute with DPS. LL can decline DPS ADR, but his only recourse would be to sue you for damage in County Court, when again he would have to justify his claim by comparing move-in/out inspections

Alt you can sue him in CC (SCC) for return of full deposit, when again he would have to justify his deductions from deposit.

[3011busyyear]

Update: he has received his quotes back which now total £1600, so double the deposit!

He says he still wishes to compromise to avoid small claims court and basically says he will not go to court if we forfeit our whole deposit!!!!!

 

I'm in shock how he can do all this without any formal body stepping in. Other than the courts which it looks like we'll have to do now. He is calling our bluff as he knows we don't have any more money to pay court fees up front to end up paying more through the courts, but we also can't just give up our deposit....OUR money!

We have not yet responded to his email. Is it better for us to take him to the courts first or await his court notice.

 

Also any opinions on his 'offer' to forfeit our deposit, surely that would go against him as if he is claiming we caused the damage surely he would want us to pay all of it!

[Steve__M]

Also any opinions on his 'offer' to forfeit our deposit, surely that would go against him as if he is claiming we caused the damage surely he would want us to pay all of it!

 

The above is quite normal. My partner (a LL) had a situation where there was about £2000 of damage but where there was absolutely no prospect of successfully taking tenant to court. So it was better to compromise.

 

In your situation, I'm afraid that at best you are unlikely to resolve this quickly.

 

If the deposit protection is with DPS (rather than myDeposits or TDS) then (I think) neither landlord nor you can get the money till either it is resolved in court or by the DPS procedure. If you don't want to pay court fees then you need to hope that either LL agrees to use DPS or tries to sue you (in which case he pays the up-front fees).

 

If LL refuses to use DPS and also refuses to sue you then this could drag on. I guess it might be a good idea for you to review the court fees as they aren't that high.

[seanamarts]

Sounds to me that the LL is being very petty. It certainly doesnt cost £100 to change two tiles and as for a cobweb in the garden, well thats just laughable, and thats what a judge would do if they were to be presented with this.

 

LL have to accept that there will be wear and tear to their properties, nothing will be at the same standard as it was when it was let. Especially after 18 months. I think you have been more than generous with the good will gesture.

[seanamarts]

Sounds to me that the LL is being very petty. It certainly doesnt cost £100 to change two tiles and as for a cobweb in the garden, well thats just laughable, and thats what a judge would do if they were to be presented with this.

 

LL have to accept that there will be wear and tear to their properties, nothing will be at the same standard as it was when it was let. Especially after 18 months. I think you have been more than generous with the good will gesture.

[3011busyyear]

Thanks for the advice.

I agree this is going to drag on. If we had done any damage we would clearly pay for it but this is just ridiculous on his behalf. I doubt he'll go to DPS because he can't claim his whole £1600 so think its looking like court.

Not sure whether to action first for our £795 or wait for him, he's informed us he's on holiday for 3 weeks now!

[3011busyyear]

Just an update, landlord advised he would be going to the courts. We have heard nothing as yet, think its been almost 2 months. Is he restricted in times? Should I contact him to ask what's going on? Should we start proceedings at our own cost?

[3011busyyear]

Further update: landlord eventually contacted us again 3minths after asking for our new address, he asksed for address again and we have now received the court forms with a total figure of £1823.00.

There is no breakdown of what this is for aside from the £80 court fees. His particulars of the claim doesn't give any details:here's what t says:

 

My claim is in relation to a rented property by the defendants, who have left the property not complying to the rental contract. My claim consists of the following items

A) general cleaning

B) carpet cleaning

C) damaged items

D) outstanding rent for additional days

E) checkout report

 

That's it! I'm not sure whether to respond based on what we know he's questioned from previous correspondence (to speed the process up) or just deny the claim and leave it to him to submit his evidence first.... Would we get the chance to defend it again or is this our only chance??

[Somecamel]

I would acknowledge the claim and get the your day in court, however make sure you have all the evidence to back up what your side of the story is. I made the mistake of going in not being fully prepared.

[MrBlack]

Well, if you are convinced that you are in the right - let the landlord take you to the small claims court. There is absolutely nothing that you have to pay upfront (I know - I've been through the system with a landlord taking me to court).

You only pay if you get a judgement against you.

If you feel you are right and can prove it - then let them take you to court.

 

My advice would be to *photograph* everything that your landlord claims is in 'disrepair' etc - you will need this type of evidence to present to the district judge. That alone should allow the judge to make a fair evaluation of what the landlord is claiming to be 'broken' and the actual state that the item is in (as revealed by the photos).

[3011busyyear]

Thanks mrblack, we actually moved out in April and took a photo of each room and key things like the inside of the oven etc things like the kitchen worktop damage were all added to his claim after we handed our keys back. As we didn't notice and certainly not do any deliberate damage o the kitchen worktop we didn't take any detailed photos of it just a general photo of the kitchen liking clean and presentable. The agent checkout states it is is the same condition as when we moved in and we have some info from various kitchen fitters regarding reasons why the worktop would have warped/bowed etc. we don't have access to the property to get them to look at it but hopefully we can use their opinions in our defence.

 

One more question if I may, the form we complete says do we wish to counter claim. As our deposit is on hold while he's sueing for twice the amount, if the judge rules in our favour would he automatically order the release of our deposit or do we need to then counter claim? I called up and they said we had to counter sue but that doesn't seem logical when he could just order it's release at the end of his claim. It's not straight forward to the average joe!!

[MrBlack]

I am not sure about that.

 

What I can tell you is this - even if the judgement is in your favour then getting the money off him could be a long haul. If he does not agree to pay the amount in full immediately, or does not agree to any monthly payment plan set by yourself (this stuff is NOT discussed in the court room - the judge will tell you to sort this stuff out between yourselves after the hearing) then you will have to go back to court to apply for an 'attachment of earnings order' which your landlord will have to fill in, stating his income (incomings, outgoings etc) and then the court will decide how much a month he should pay to you.

 

Sadly, the court does not check this information that thoroughly - so if he says he has 3 cars and spends a £150 a month on each one for petrol, which is essential to his business etc, then that will impact on the courts decision of payments.

 

I know this from first hand experience...

[3011busyyear]

Thanks mrblack our deposit is held with the DPS rather than the landlord having to pay us directly. Landlord refused to go through DPS arbitration to resolve this, hence why it's ended up in court.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

You have your pictures and the Letting Agent's report. He will have to prove his case which I would suggest he can't. You will have your day in court. Just make sure you get your papers in order and research previous cases you can refer to. Put stickies in the relevant rulings so you can turn to the pages easily. I didn't think the LL could refuse DPS arbitration? Also you will ahve been inspected at least once by the letting agents. Do you have a note as to when this was?

[3011busyyear]

Almost a year later we are now getting towards a court date. LL still has provided very little evidence and has been told to do so by 4th March, we also have to provide our defence by this date in order for the hearing to go ahead on 4th April.

However the judge has stated this should really be settled by mediation which LL has refused all along, but now has agreed to a teleconference tomorrow.

The question I have is that a bulk of the amount he's now suing for is for replacement of the kitchen worktop, but when the house was up to let again a few weeks ago we had a friend go round to look and it appears it has not been replaced! Surely he can't sue us for work he has not done?! I'm guessing he has to provide dated receipts to the court for all work done? Are we best not to mention this in the mediation so he doesn't have time to magic up a receipt- he seems to have a few buddies that could do this for him (I wouldn't put fraud past him!) any advice would be great. At present I am 37w pregnant so not got the energy to fight which he most likely knows and timed for that reason(I would not put it against him the weasel!)

[mariner51]

No LL does not have to replace the worktop nor provide a receipt for any alleged T damage, only a reasonable estimate for repair/replacement. It is up to Judge/Adj to decide whether claim is reasonable, based on age of orig, location & extent of damage, how caused and cost of replacement/repair, matchability etc.

The claim is LL compensation for T damage caused. If he doesn't replace, this may affect the amount of future rent he can charge new Ts.

[3011busyyear]

Ok that's interesting to know. It's going to be interesting to see the judges view on this. As far as we are concerned we used the worktop in a usual manner for the 18months we were there. He's since let the property twice at the same rent amount we paid.

We have various emails from kitchen fitters explaining how joints could be blown and most seem to suggest having a kettle on the worktop which naturally we did! (which would surely be wear and tear) or incorrect sealing of joints initially. We have a general photo of the worktop but I'm not sure what else we can use to support our case?

Edited February 18, 2013 by 3011busyyear

[3011busyyear]

Update-mediation didn't result in an agreement. We kept our half cost of cleaning and half carpets on the table but it was rejected as suspected. He is claiming approx £1900. He came back with the offer of forfeiting our whole deposit which we declined. Hubby is concerned we will look like the unreasonable party based on this but we just can't admit to damaging the worktop esp when he has no evidence to say it wasn't wear and tear or badly sealed initially and that constitutes half of his claim.

Just a question on the issue if 'betterment'. Does te landlord submit the whole quote in his claim as he has £850+vat and the judge will account for that or should he landlord be submitting a lower amount already accounting for wear ad tear/age etc?

[jaffro]

Update-mediation didn't result in an agreement. We kept our half cost of cleaning and half carpets on the table but it was rejected as suspected. He is claiming approx £1900. He came back with the offer of forfeiting our whole deposit which we declined. Hubby is concerned we will look like the unreasonable party based on this but we just can't admit to damaging the worktop esp when he has no evidence to say it wasn't wear and tear or badly sealed initially and that constitutes half of his claim.

Just a question on the issue if 'betterment'. Does te landlord submit the whole quote in his claim as he has £850+vat and the judge will account for that or should he landlord be submitting a lower amount already accounting for wear ad tear/age etc?

 

from what i belive the mediation isnt allowed to be discussed in court....all the court gets to no is it either worked or failed.......