PPI Roberts vs Lloyds

[ferrotty]

Hi, I am doing this for my son but basically he took out a TSB loan back in Oct 2007 (ironically to pay off other debts)of £6000 over 5 years plus £1916 PPI both at 18.3% Interest, PPI total was a lump sum put into the original loan would be £2855 with the Interest it works out at nearly 48% of original loan of £6000 unbelievable.

 

He had been trying to pay this loan off but keeps going overdrawn as he is finding it difficult as TSB keeps piling on charges for being overdrawn and it just makes matters a lot worse,he was unable to continue paying loan after 15 payments they restructured the debt but he was still unable to pay,they restructured again after 2years but he just could not afford it,they have finally sold the debt on and he is being harassed by them now (Credit Security Ltd).

 

Apparently from what he remembers it was all done over the phone and he says he felt pressured into taking out the PPI, how on earth they can charge 48% of the loan in PPI charges is beyond me.He has been unable to service the loan as they keep charging him for going into overdraft its just a vicious circle, he has tried to come to some arrangement but still cannot pay loan and Lloyds have now sold the debt on.

 

I have sent the PPI FOS Consumer questionaire off to Lloyds (over 3 weeks ago) and I have also sent a letter asking them to cease all the charges on the account,they have replied to the PPI saying they are investigating but nothing from the charges letter both sent by recorded delivery, in the letter for cessation of charges on the account I have informed them I will complain to the FOS under the hardship criteria if the refuse.

 

Can I also chase them for all the fees that they have charged since he has not been able to afford the payments because the loan and PPI charges kept putting him in overdraft and he kept missing DD payments as well.

 

I have done a breakdown of charges ie O/D interest O/D charges and returned direct debits total about £3900, I worked this out after I sent the SAR for his statements, I am also going to keep the PPI seperate from the claim back of charges thats if I can claim them back.

 

I would be grateful for any assistance in sorting out this mess,ie did I do the right thing what should I do next

 

PS I plan to get him to ring up this afternoon asking why no reply from the cessation of charges letter.

Edited February 3, 2012 by ferrotty

[ims21]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

PPI first, yes you have done the right thing. They will have 8 weeks to investigate and give you a final decision before you can pass it to fos.

 

Have a read of No.1 in my signature about single premium PPI as you may want to check any offer they might make.

 

On the charges front, you are correct that the hardship route may help you with the overdraft charges. Depending on the dates these charges were applied, BCOBS may also help you. Have a look here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php

 

Have there been fees applied to the loan account as well? If so they can be reclaimed.

 

ims

[ferrotty]

Thanks for your swift reply, I read the single premium yesterday,I am not sure about the fees for the loan account I will have to check but if its on his statement (as the loan payments are not a seperate account as far as I can see)I have included it,one question I have is I know a manager at barclaycard and she says Barclays pay the whole PPI charge back whether you finished paying loan or not as it takes too much manpower to work thing out is this true and has anyone had it happen to them with Lloyds.

 

As to the charges I have only included those since he took the loan out.

[ims21]

Hi

 

If the bank refunded the whole PPI premium rather than restructure the loan for the as yert unpaid part, then they would have to do that for the interest also. If they do not restructure the loan then the claimant must be given enough to cover the future interest payments on the ppi loan too.

 

That is one of the reasons to check any offer that it made. Never trust a bank.

 

From late 2009 BCOBS puts a statutory duty on banks to treat their customers fairly. Failure to do so is a breach of statutry duty and is actionable in court. When did these charges start being applied to the account?

 

ims

 

ims

[ferrotty]

I believe Barclays paid the full PPI back even though only part paid and the Interest on the full amount of PPI premium,I will attach my spreadsheet so you can see the charges. I don't know if restructuring of loan twice included any PPI as they have not provided him any paperwork as far as I know.

 

Maybe you can see from the spreadsheet if I have done it correctly,I have only put the charges on and not any Interest.

PPI CLAIM 2011.xls

[ims21]

When they re-arranged the loan to make the payments £150 per month, was a new agreement signed?

 

I think if it were me I'd SAR the bank to get as much information as you can on all of this.

 

Template for SAR is in the CAG library, the link to which is at the top of every CAG page in green.

 

You should really be looking at two spreadsheets here, one for the ppi reclaim and on for a charges claim. From the dates it would seem that hardship is going to be thr route to go as your problems started before BCOBS came into effect.

 

For the ppi claim there is a spreadsheet at the end of the single premium ppi article called StatIntV101.xls. Use that one for the ppi claim.

 

ims

[ferrotty]

I will have to ask him whether he signed a new agreement as he has not mentioned it,I have done a SAR and got his statements do you mean a SAR to get any other information about his account ?, yes I just did the one spreadsheet just for my own purpose,cheers for the spreadsheets.

[ims21]

Sorry...didn't realise you'd done a SAR already.

 

Did you not get anything else in the SAR other than statements?

 

ims

[ferrotty]

No just statements,below was the letter I sent them.

 

 

 

Please supply me with copies of my bank statements which you hold on me in relation to any matter and in any form since 01/10/2007

 

 

 

Please note that I also require disclosure of any personal data which you hold on me for the entire period of my dealings with you.

 

The Subject Access is not limited to my transaction history and it is not limited merely to 6 years of historical information.

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties or charges which are invalid under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations against me, then I shall be reclaiming them together with any interest charges which you have levied on them.

 

As it is your wrongdoing and mishandling of my account which has created the necessity for this SAR, I shall also be reclaiming the enclosed £10 DPA subject access request fee.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

[EDIT]

Edited February 3, 2012 by ims21
Name removed

[ims21]

Ok

 

If they only sent statements it may be a failed SAR which you could take up with them.

 

We need to find out what that restructure was all about and whether it was a new loan agreement taken out or just simply an informal arrangement to accept lower payments for a limited period

 

ims

[ferrotty]

From what he recalls the changes to the loans were all done over the phone, he does not remember any paperwork being signed.

 

I have just dug out the letter that came back with the copy statements and it says quote-

 

Details of when records have been deleted or disposed of do not constitute personal data and we are not obliged to keep a record of this .All paperwork that contains personal or financial data is disposed of in a secure manner.If you need full Data Subject Access Request DSAR information please write to us..

[ferrotty]

Today I have received an offer from Lloyds offering a total of £2815.90 in full and final settlement,this breaks down into so-

 

Refund of premiums £1046.98

Early settlement difference £1500.50

Interest at 8% 268.42

total £2815.90

 

Looking at the payments made for the PPI part I work out that he has paid 24 payments before he defaulted on loan,the loan payment was reduced after 16 payments from £196.59 down to £150 which he then made another 7 payments at £150 and one at £180,I am not sure why one at £180 though.

 

Anyway the PPI part of those payments were £47.90 if you multiply by 24 you get £1149.60 which is close to the refund of payments above,I am not sure what early settlement difference is but it seems on the whole a reasonable offer but since searching on this website I found this by site team citizenB

 

I got behind with my loan which had PPI attached to it. As a result, the loan was sold to a debt collectionAgency and I have a notice of assignment to that effect. As my debt has been sold, who do I now claim from and what do I claim.

 

This is an interesting one but you should revert to the logic that it was the original creditor or their agent who mis-sold the policy and therefore it is they who are your target for the reclaim.

 

Surprising as it may seem, the dca has nothing to do with the policy or the sale of it. All they have is a figure that they have bought. The claim is therefore to the original lender.

 

Now there is no set rule as to what goes on here but the closest logical approach is as follows.

 

Prior to selling the debt, the original lender would have issued default and termination notices. It is likely that from the date of termination no further interest will be added to the account. There would clearly be a balance on the account otherwise there would be nothing to sell on to a dca.

 

If you put yourself in the bank’s shoes what can they do about a claim that they uphold?

 

Normally they would adjust the loan balance for the unpaid part of the PPI, offset the claim against any arrears on the account and refund the balance to the claimant. As they have assigned all rights etc to the dca, they can no longer interfere with the balance on the account (generally speaking).

 

So what they have to do to put things right is to refund the entire premium to the claimant plus the interest they would have charged on the payments by the claimant and then plus interest on those payments by way of compensation, typically 8% statutory interest.

 

They do this in the logical approach that if the dca has a figure that has been sold to them, that figure would still include some of the PPI but the bank can’t touch that. By refunding the entire premium plus the appropriate interest, they are assuming that the claimant will use that refund to pay off the dca and the bank are giving you back more than you have actually paid in order to fund that.

 

Now whether the claimant has a dispute with the dca is beyond the scope of this article but this is a recent scenario that has cropped up and from the calculations we have been able to perform is an accurate representation as to what happened.

 

So in this scenario you would put forward a claim for the total amount of the PPI premium plus the interest charged by the bank on the payments actually made plus the further 8% statutory interest on each payment actually made.

 

 

So I am going to send a letter back (below)could anyone confirm I am doing the right thing as it does seem logical,maybe citizenB could comment thanks.

 

Dear Samantha,

 

I am writing in response to your letter of 16 February 2012 ref my loan and PPI payment and making me an offer of £2815,90 in total for the miss selling of PPI and refund plus Interest etc.so please see my response below as you have sold my debt on.

 

Normally you would adjust the loan balance for the unpaid part of the PPI, offset the claim against any arrears on the account and refund the balance to me the claimant but as you have assigned all rights etc to the debt agency then I need to be put in a position were I can repay that debt or part of it.

 

So what you need to do to put things right is to refund me the entire PPI premium plus the interest you would have charged on the payments by me and then plus interest on those payments by way of compensation, typically 8% statutory interest.

 

So the debt agency has a figure that has been sold to them for my loan, that figure would still include some of the PPI but you the bank can’t touch that. By refunding me the entire premium plus the appropriate interest then I the claimant will be able to use that refund to pay off the debt agency and you the bank are giving me back more than I have actually paid in order to fund that.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

[EDIT]

Edited February 22, 2012 by ims21
Removal of name

[ims21]

Hi

 

I have edited your above post to remove your name.

 

No need to send the letter...I think you will find that the offer is about right.

 

The £1,500 is I think the remainder of the PPI premium following on from the remination/sale of the account.

 

The £1,046.98 should be the premiums and the bank interest paid up to the termination, the £1,500 is the part that was not yet due at termination and the 8% interest is the amount on the money actually paid over up to termination.

 

ims

[ferrotty]

Ok ims21 many thanks,I did the spreadsheet that was on here though and it came to £3301 worked out on this assumption but have not Included the last bit of Interest so they have not actually compensated him.

 

-So what they have to do to put things right is to refund the entire premium to the claimant plus the interest they would have charged on the payments by the claimant and then plus interest on those payments by way of compensation, typically 8% statutory interest.

 

AWARD CALCULATION

 

Monthly Payment of PPI £2,874.00

 

 

8% Simple Interest £427.59

 

 

Total £3,301.59

[ims21]

Hi

 

OK I'll have a look at it this evening when I get in from work and go through the figures

 

ims

[ferrotty]

Many thanks ims21

[ferrotty]

spreadsheet

 

 

 

PPI REDRESS CALCULATION UNDER FOS RULES - SINGLE PREMIUM POLICIES

 

 

PERSONAL DETAILS AWARD CALCULATION

 

Claimant Name: [EDIT] Monthly Payment of PPI £2,874.00

 

Lender Name: Lloyds TSB

8% Simple Interest £427.59

Account Number: [EDIT]

 

Claim From: 01/11/2007 Total £3,301.59

 

Claim To: 22/02/2012

 

 

"Date of

Charge" Description "Amount of

Charge" "Number of

Days Elapsed" "Interest at

8% Simple"

 

01/11/2007 PPI Payment £47.90 1574 £16.59

01/12/2007 PPI Payment £47.90 1544 £16.27

01/01/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1513 £15.94

01/02/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1482 £15.62

01/03/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1453 £15.31

01/04/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1422 £14.99

01/05/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1392 £14.67

01/06/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1361 £14.34

01/07/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1331 £14.03

01/08/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1300 £13.70

01/09/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1269 £13.37

01/10/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1239 £13.06

01/11/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1208 £12.73

01/12/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1178 £12.41

01/01/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1147 £12.09

01/02/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1116 £11.76

01/03/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1088 £11.47

01/04/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1057 £11.14

01/05/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1027 £10.82

01/06/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 996 £10.50

01/07/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 966 £10.18

01/08/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 935 £9.85

01/09/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 904 £9.53

01/10/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 874 £9.21

01/11/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 843 £8.88

01/12/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 813 £8.57

01/01/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 782 £8.24

01/02/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 751 £7.91

01/03/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 723 £7.62

01/04/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 692 £7.29

01/05/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 662 £6.98

01/06/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 631 £6.65

01/07/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 601 £6.33

01/08/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 570 £6.01

01/09/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 539 £5.68

01/10/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 509 £5.36

01/11/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 478 £5.04

01/12/2010 PPI Payment £47.90 448 £4.72

01/01/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 417 £4.39

01/02/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 386 £4.07

01/03/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 358 £3.77

01/04/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 327 £3.45

01/05/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 297 £3.13

01/06/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 266 £2.80

01/07/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 236 £2.49

01/08/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 205 £2.16

01/09/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 174 £1.83

01/10/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 144 £1.52

01/11/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 113 £1.19

01/12/2011 PPI Payment £47.90 83 £0.87

01/01/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 52 £0.55

01/02/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 21 £0.22

01/03/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -8 -£0.08

01/04/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -39 -£0.41

01/05/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -69 -£0.73

01/06/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -100 -£1.05

01/07/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -130 -£1.37

01/08/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -161 -£1.70

01/09/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -192 -£2.02

01/10/2012 PPI Payment £47.90 -222 -£2.34

Edited February 22, 2012 by ims21
Removed name and account number

[ims21]

Hi

 

You need to re-do your spreadsheet.

 

The PPI was 24.2% of the total loan.

 

You need to list the actual payments made for PPI up to the date that payments stopped....don't carry them on after that point.

 

Remember 24.2% of whatever amount was actually paid so if the repayment was £196.59 then the PPI part is £47.57, If it was £150 then the PPI part is £36.30

 

Let us know the result when you have done that

 

ims

Edited February 22, 2012 by ims21
spelling doh!

[ferrotty]

Ok I have adjusted spreadsheet to what I think you mean,these are for the actual payments.

 

 

PPI REDRESS CALCULATION UNDER FOS RULES - SINGLE PREMIUM POLICIES

 

 

PERSONAL DETAILS AWARD CALCULATION

 

Claimant Name: [EDIT] Monthly Payment of PPI £1,152.60

 

Lender Name: Lloyds TSB

8% Simple Interest £308.24

Account Number: [EDIT]

 

Claim From: 01/11/2007 Total £1,460.84

 

Claim To: 22/02/2012

 

 

"Date of

Charge" Description "Amount of

Charge" "Number of

Days Elapsed" "Interest at

8% Simple"

 

01/11/2007 PPI Payment £47.90 1574 £16.59

01/12/2007 PPI Payment £47.90 1544 £16.27

01/01/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1513 £15.94

01/02/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1482 £15.62

01/03/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1453 £15.31

01/04/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1422 £14.99

01/05/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1392 £14.67

01/06/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1361 £14.34

01/07/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1331 £14.03

01/08/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1300 £13.70

01/09/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1269 £13.37

01/10/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1239 £13.06

01/11/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1208 £12.73

01/12/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1178 £12.41

01/01/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1147 £12.09

01/02/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1116 £11.76

01/03/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1088 £11.47

01/04/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1057 £11.14

01/05/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 1027 £8.20

01/06/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 996 £7.95

01/07/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 966 £7.71

01/08/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 935 £7.47

01/09/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 904 £7.22

01/10/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 874 £6.98

01/11/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 843 £6.73

01/12/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 813 £6.49

 

 

 

So what I said earlier though was that they sold the debt on and they sold that debt on with the value of all the PPI payment being paid albeit at a lower cost so therefore the quote below from this website should mean I should put all the payments in surely.

 

So what they have to do to put things right is to refund the entire premium to the claimant plus the interest they would have charged on the payments by the claimant and then plus interest on those payments by way of compensation, typically 8% statutory interest.

Edited February 22, 2012 by ims21
Removed account number and name

[ims21]

Hi

 

Lets get the spreadsheet right first off. In the one in post #19 you have entered 18 payments of £47.90. In an earlier post yu said he made 15?

 

Did some of the payments not get returned hence the recalled direct debits? If so you need to ignore those ones. You need to arrive at what payments were atually made and not include the ones that were returned.

 

As they have sold the debt on, they can no longer restructure the loan so that is why you get the extra lump (in this case the £1500).

 

This statement

 

So what they have to do to put things right is to refund the entire premium to the claimant plus the interest they would have charged on the payments by the claimant and then plus interest on those payments by way of compensation, typically 8% statutory interest.

 

means that you get back the premium plus the bank's interest on the payments actually made plus 8% on those payments

 

ims

[ferrotty]

Ok so I was wrong in both cases,its actually 16 payments at £47.90 and 8 payments at £36.30 so if what your saying is correct that comes to what they have offered him £2815 approx

 

 

PPI REDRESS CALCULATION UNDER FOS RULES - SINGLE PREMIUM POLICIES

 

 

PERSONAL DETAILS AWARD CALCULATION

 

Claimant Name: [EDIT] Monthly Payment of PPI £1,056.80

 

Lender Name: Lloyds TSB

8% Simple Interest £289.54

Account Number: [EDIT]

 

Claim From: 01/11/2007 Total £1,346.34

 

Claim To: 22/02/2012

 

 

"Date of

Charge" Description "Amount of

Charge" "Number of

Days Elapsed" "Interest at

8% Simple"

 

01/11/2007 PPI Payment £47.90 1574 £16.59

01/12/2007 PPI Payment £47.90 1544 £16.27

01/01/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1513 £15.94

01/02/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1482 £15.62

01/03/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1453 £15.31

01/04/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1422 £14.99

01/05/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1392 £14.67

01/06/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1361 £14.34

01/07/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1331 £14.03

01/08/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1300 £13.70

01/09/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1269 £13.37

01/10/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1239 £13.06

01/11/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1208 £12.73

01/12/2008 PPI Payment £47.90 1178 £12.41

01/01/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1147 £12.09

01/02/2009 PPI Payment £47.90 1116 £11.76

01/03/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 1088 £8.69

01/04/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 1057 £8.44

01/05/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 1027 £8.20

01/06/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 996 £7.95

01/07/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 966 £7.71

01/08/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 935 £7.47

01/09/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 904 £7.22

01/10/2009 PPI Payment £36.30 874 £6.98

Edited February 22, 2012 by ims21
Edited for name and account number

[ims21]

Hi

 

Yep...that looks right to me

 

As I say, I think they are about right.

 

ims

[ferrotty]

Ok ims21 thanks for your time.