@asklloydsbank Business Loan - BCOBS/Unfair treatment?

[Kefte]

I've been doing several pieces of research and I'm trying to figure things out. I've been reading several articles on CAG

 

If I give you background of our dealings then perhaps you might help more. We took out a loan with Llloyds TSB in March 2009 for two investment properties with significant capital input from us, which was fine and paid for 12 months, but my partner took out a temporary overdraft at the end of 2009 (not allowed a permanent one at the time) to cover a bill for the one of the two properties (for a necessary large repair) knowing that both properties rental income would pay off the overdraft in-time, unfortunately the Second property was left untenanted and the overdraft wasn't paid back in-time - we were not given an extension but levied huge fees - trying to sort things out was difficult we had a newborn baby and a elder son who is disabled and was having major problems with regular emergency trips to the hospital. What made it worse is my partner's company he worked for went into liquidation and although a new company was set up from the ashes by partners of the group my partner Salary was decreased and as it was a specialized position he had very little negotiation, so we couldn't contribute any income from that to pay off the debt faster.

 

But the Loan amount was £250 per month. We had another property bringing in an income of £400 going into the business account so we thought Lloyds would see that and act accordingly. At the start of our Loan we had a business Manager at our Local branch, which was brilliant, and although he was off with illness we seem assured he would return or someone else would fill that position - but this never happened, so we had to travel 45 minutes to another bank and my partner had to have non-paid time off work. But nevertheless my partner attended a few meetings (as I had higher priorities with our children) and the first meeting was positive from all accounts, he was basically told the computer would say no but the Business Bank Manager would override this and the overdraft would merge into the loan, my partner in his desperate situation though had been looking into getting a quick sale for the property untenanted and using the capital to start his own business and the Business Bank Manager was very encouraging and said pointed out how slow the market was and pushed my partner towards quick sale agents like "Homebuyer" as a good idea - I was very much against the latter, but my partner came home with a the Bank Manager says I should do it therefore it's a good idea IYSWIM otherwise I certainly don't think he would have gone down this route at all. Also, he asked about making his Loan payment via a debit card over the phone in future but my partner seemed to be led with the impression that the overdraft was a breach of his loan and the paying through his account was part of the Loan agreement too, I think because of the overdraft merge it wasn't such a blow that he didn't press it as much as we now see he should have.

 

But nevertheless he got homebuyer involved, the bank were notified of a completion date - the Bank Manager had reassured him that the sale price would pay off the outstanding loan on that Property and the rest we could invest elsewhere. But less than a week before completion, the bank manager rang us up and said that we might need to sell the other property too and that the sale price from the property being sold would have to go towards a payout the whole loan - my partner tells me it felt very much like he was being herded into selling them both off quickly - due to the timing and the wording. I was livid by this point, I was already very furious about the quick sale option as we were set to loose £40,000 so imagine doubling that, but again it seemed as if my partner had been both pressurized and sweet-talked (ie you have to do as you've breached your loan and you can go ahead start a fresh with your own business) but I couldn't see the point as they were going to merge the overdraft, so I told him I would not sign anything and that stopped the sale of the property this was about July 2010. From then on it gets a bit non-existent does our communication with Lloyds - my partner spoke to his Business Manager on the phone a few times and my partner again asked about paying for the loan another way, he basically said "We get £400 rent every month, it more than covers the loan amount, we could pay this into my personal bank account and service the loan through there" and he was basically again told very similar how the overdraft was a breach of the loan, how it needs to into a business account.... It was sickening at the time, as £400 was going into the account and being taken out in charges. We've paid more in charges than we would have for the loan.

 

It was apparent by August 2010 that the overdraft/loan merge was never going to take place, and that was when we were passed over to Wholesale debt recoveries asking for a repayment plan for the loan. I think at the time it was a really difficult period with my son and my partner's work, because we did a terrible thing and we didn't respond to their letter until about 6-weeks after we were sent it and were told they wouldn't accept one as it was too late. I ended up fighting tooth and nail, because my partner had fallen into a deep dark hole of depression with it all and had lost his fight. After lengthy communication - and I agree my personal correspondence could have been quicker - although I did keep begging for a face-to-face meeting.

 

In early 2011 we had a very positive telephone conversation - well it seemed as if we were going to get somewhere at last, she seemed nice and was willing to come to some agreement and discuss our complaints. But, the meeting would have to take place in Bristol (note we live near Scarborough, which is on the East coast in North Yorkshire) or very near to. Again it felt like they were trying to manipulate the situation, we told them we had a son that needed regular emergency medical attention and a very young child, but we decided the trip might be worth it and we were willing to organize something. She gave me a number to ring to decide on a date for this meeting, but I rang about 25 times and only ever spoke to her Secretary. I wasn't sure where to direct a letter too. In the end, I spoke to the Financial Ombudsman and they said I had to make a written complaint to the bank, which I did.

 

By mid-2011 we were having to talk through their solicitors and we received their final letter from the bank on our complaint that it wasn't up-holded, and I contacted the Ombudsman, and we finally sent everything we needed off and still waiting.

 

But, I have read consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?827-Examples-of-unfair-treament (drawing you back to the link above) and I have several points which I think we need to fight.

 

1. They - Refused to discuss financial difficulties and to suggest positive solutions - they just wanted their Loan returned and that's all they ever tried to manipulate IMO.

 

2. Levying charges upon charges - I need to add these up but over this small window it goes into £1000s

 

3. Insisting on payments being made only in some particular form such as by direct debit - and refusing to accept payments made by some other method, for instance Standing order.

 

4 Customers' interests A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly.

 

5 Communications with clients A firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading.

 

6 Conflicts of interest A firm must manage conflicts of interest fairly, both between itself and its customers and between a customer and another client.

 

I've also read several things that relate to banks having to balance the interests and not working in the banks.

 

So, my question is, do I have a case? And if I do - what do I do next - how do we sue our bank? (Gosh that sounds so scary) ...

 

I was looking into the small claims court - and it seems to be under £100,000 - but my loan is for £125,000 and although I'm not necessary going out to have my loan reimbursed, we'd quite like more than our charges because we don't want to loose thousands in a quick sale.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Kefte
Just researching more.

[batman1956]

First things first. How much of this is in writing? In my experience with LTSB they are very good at speaking but very bad at writing. What you need to do is ensure that everything that happens is provable. It is inconceivable that they should ask you to travel to Bristol from where you live. I guess others will be along to advise but personally I would start with a dsar request (cost £10) The problem will be that you will get an absolute mountain of paperwork, much of it no use to you, that you will then have to spend days sorting through to find what you want (I wonder why they do that lol!!) You must accept though that at your meeting you were only given advice and it was up to you if or not you acted on this. However one would expect that an advisor for a financial institution would be qualified to give good advice and so it is understandable that you followed this advice.

[Kefte]

First things first. How much of this is in writing? In my experience with LTSB they are very good at speaking but very bad at writing. What you need to do is ensure that everything that happens is provable. It is inconceivable that they should ask you to travel to Bristol from where you live. I guess others will be along to advise but personally I would start with a dsar request (cost £10) The problem will be that you will get an absolute mountain of paperwork, much of it no use to you, that you will then have to spend days sorting through to find what you want (I wonder why they do that lol!!) You must accept though that at your meeting you were only given advice and it was up to you if or not you acted on this. However one would expect that an advisor for a financial institution would be qualified to give good advice and so it is understandable that you followed this advice.

 

I have sent a letter for Data request already, so I will sift through everything when it comes. There's probably several things I don't re-collect properly, so I hopefully it'll be through my letterbox soon.

 

But that is my big worry - how can we prove ourselves, it was all meetings and telephone conversations. I just hope our actions speak out for something. But I imagine we don't have much of a leg to stand on because I imagine the bank can easily say well advised them to do X but they didn't do it... that's why I'm terrified.

 

My partner had a proven record with regular communication with his bank manager though, he didn't bury his head in the sand, but again all that was over the phone (there was very little written communication between them). One thing we did offer is to pay all our arrears (about 5 months worth) and there was a letter saying it was now too late and the Loan would not be re-instated, to us that seemed premature. We also went into local banks and rang helplines but because it'd been passed to Wholesale banking recoveries nobody could gain access to our account and Loan information - they closed our account down for access after only 5-missed payments (although I'm going to go through the data to clarify that point).. so we our only correspondence allowed was with wholesale banking recoveries which a. are based in Bristol and b. refused to correspond via e-mail, telephone or face-to-face meeting (well I asked in written letters and this point was ignored) the main thing for us was to get things moving and sorted quickly.

 

We, also never received any letters of how we could pay off our arrears, when I've missed a Loan or mortgage before there's usually a letter saying how to pay it instead.

 

I'm not sure if it would be proof - the well paying tenant's standing order of £400 rent every Month, and we were perfectly able to organize them paying elsewhere and us paying the loan and insurances out of that (we even discussed this with the tenant about moving the deposit). Instead we let that get "eaten up" by charges because we thought we had very little choice (only in August 2011 did we stop this payment, feeling all was lost and we'd quite like an extra £400). By August 2010 we had the second-property re-let, so we had an income of £1000 per month, 4x our payment - we could not only afford to pay off the arrears but pay comfortable and we have had the latter tenant since that date. Hence why they're happy to only except £1000 per month plus the marketing of both properties at the moment, and they want them sold asap... they don't care because even if they sold for a fraction of their worth they'd still get their share.

 

It was never a case of not being able to afford to pay it - well we have paid more in charges than what we would have paid in the Loan anyway which is laughable! and we can prove that at least. Also, they offered to stop the charges, these continued (and still do as far as we are aware), even though again we have asked them to be stopped (written letter) this was ignored.

 

I'm so angry about that temporary overdraft, I'm so angry at myself at not being able to take a more active roll and everything that has happened with our Son and Dravet syndrome and the constant hospital and stays and new baby taking me away from being able to control our lives and help my partner who works all hours, had to help in the care and isn't financially savvy nor the confidence. This was an investment so I didn't have to work and I could stay at home to be a full-time Carer for our son...why my partner hadn't just got an credit card or something else to pay for the cost. What is done is done, but just because we led to thinking that we were doing the only things we possibly could at the time but we didn't - there were others.... and it was so clear that option was available. But we were told it wasn't!!! ARGH.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Kefte

[Kefte]

Btw - Thank-you for replying, I was terrified that people might be malicious because of our previous ignorance. Everyday I mentally beat-myself-up with thoughts of how we could listen to someone with another agenda, why we didn't start asking querying things more and generally just firing off letters left-right and centre to have such things confirmed in writing. But, hindsight is wonderful and we had so much going on. It's hard to try tell someone how difficult our lives were then, but my son was on a medicine that increased his seizures so much, but they kept increasing the dose despite and he was in and out of hospital, we slept in our clothes with an emergency bag next to the bed - and it was regularly used.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Kefte

[batman1956]

I have alerted the site team to try and get you more relevant advice.No one here will judge you.

[citizenB]

Btw - Thank-you for replying, I was terrified that people might be malicious because of our previous ignorance. Everyday I mentally beat-myself-up with thoughts of how we could listen to someone with another agenda, why we didn't start asking querying things more and generally just firing off letters left-right and centre to have such things confirmed in writing. But, hindsight is wonderful and we had so much going on. It's hard to try tell someone how difficult our lives were then, but my son was on a medicine that increased his seizures so much, but they kept increasing the dose despite and he was in and out of hospital, we slept in our clothes with an emergency bag next to the bed - and it was regularly used.

 

Sadly you are not alone.. you trusted your bank to explain things so you would understand them.. To act in YOUR best interest and not in the interest of their balance sheets.

 

I think first of all you need to ensure you have your "evidence"

 

Where telephone conversations were involved - try and jot down as much as you can possibly remember about what was said.

 

Have you sent off a Subject Access Request ? If you have, have you received it and do you believe you have received everything you asked for. If you havent, have a look at the attached, it is a pretty comprehensive list and from what you say above.. most of it will be relevant.

 

FULL Data Subject Access Request - for Forum.pdf

[Kefte]

Thank-you, I've sent off the letter template from CAG for a request for data - but looking through that PDF it looks far more comprehensive... Perhaps, would it be worth sending that off too? Just in-case I don't get the full picture with the former...

[citizenB]

If you believe that information in the pdf will be of value, go for it.. send a supplementary request