Westcot ccj - old catalogue debt - now back in court by Arrrow Global - HELP!!

[legoearth]

Thankyou. I'll have a go! How do I get it served on Wescot? Do I send it to the court?

[gezwee]

Hi Le

 

Serve = post [rec del would be prudent]

 

Gez

[legoearth]

Sorry to seem a bit dim ,but to whom? The court or Wescot or both?

Lego

[citizenB]

Thankyou. I'll have a go! How do I get it served on Wescot? Do I send it to the court?

 

Hi Le

 

Serve = post [rec del would be prudent]

 

Gez

 

Sorry to seem a bit dim ,but to whom? The court or Wescot or both?

Lego

 

 

"File and serve" are used in the providing of documents/defences/witness statements to both court and the claimant. When you are asked to "file and serve" the idea is that you "file" paperwork with the court and "serve" that same document on the claimant, usually by sending it to their solicitors.

 

Do you have anything that tells you where you need to send paperwork for the claimant either a Solicitor's name and address or a contact at Westcott? If you havent then ask the court manager where they are sending their paperwork to the claimant.

 

Is this case now at your local court ? If so you can file the paperwork by hand. At this stage of the game, anything you send by post to either the court or the claimant should be sent by 1st class recorded or special delivery mail .. you need to keep both the receipt you obtain from the post office when you mail it and also check the online status for delivery details a couple of days later to ensure that it has been delivered and a signature obtained. You should print that receipt off from the RM website.

[legoearth]

New-update...Have received today a witness statement from from Wescot.Front page reads as follows-

 

Dear Sirs,

please find enclosed claimant's witness statement for the hearing of 16th april 2012 at 12.30pm.

The claimant also encloses a notice of change of adress.

We can confirm in accordence with the Spirit,and Rules of the Overriding Objective of the CPR listed below:-

1.32(a) encouraging parties to co operate

1.32(j) Dealing with the case without parties needing to attend court

 

We are willing to entered into discussion to hopefully resolves this issues raise without the need for further costs to be incurred by either party.

 

Should you wish to discuss this matter further,please contact name on number. Alternatively,write to the address below or email email address

 

Yours faithfully,

Wescot

 

 

I've not put the name number etc but they are on the letter,

this is an exact copy,word for word,

including the apalling punctuation

,English and grammar.

Although mines not perfect I'm not writing this stuff for a living!!!

 

There are several other pages with this with print outs of computer records of their attempts to contact him over the years.

There is also a part where they refer to my partner as 'she'

and that the debt relates to an account with littlewoods with a last order in 1999.

As said earlier in my posts there was a debt owing for a couple of hundred pounds at the most with Index

(same people I belive) but this was from around 2001/2002

he had no credit with anybody before April 2000 as he still lived at his mothers house

and credit 'was not allowed!'

There are no details as to how the debt came about or what address it was from.

This must be somebody elses debt but how can we prove it?

I'm searching through old papers trying to find something relating to the index account

that would have a date after April 2000 when we set up home together.

Would this be enough to prove it is not his debt?

[debbbbsy]

This must be somebody elses debt but how can we prove it?

 

You must remember that the court process demands that they, the claimant must prove that you owe the money and that this is your debt. You are under no legal obligation to prove this debt belongs to somebody else.

 

I think best option is to respond pointing out that this is not your debt, and advising them to discontinue the claim.

 

debs x

[citizenB]

Soudns to me as though Wescloth have suddenly realised they are in the wrong and are now trying to minimise the damage to themselves.

 

You have denied any knowledge of either the debt or having received the original paperwork where it is obvious a Judgment by default has been awarded against you.

 

You should now be emphasising that had you been in possession of the original paperwork you would have requested confirmation that the debt was indeed yours. Which you are denying.

 

Aside from having no knowledge of the original claim against you, to date you have not been provided with any evidence of an outstanding debt owed to anyone by you.

 

So a judgment has been entered in your name which has had the effect of trashing your credit files this apart from the mental anguish it has caused.

 

Not only do you want them to discontinue the claim you want them to remove any damaging information on your credit files and an apology and pay any costs you have incurred.

 

Even if the debt was yours, from the information you have been provided with, it would have been statute barred in any case.

[legoearth]

Thanks for the prompt replies.

 

I can't find any old paperwork at all.

 

We've moved quite a few times in the last few years and things went missing along the way.

 

should we contact Wescot as they say they want to avoid going to court

and if we do should we send copies of any contact to the court?

[citizenB]

What you have posted in post # 24 is what they have said on the covering letter - is there any way you can edit and post up the actual Witness statement, please. ?

 

Instructions for doing this are below..

 

Dx100 – Instructions on uploading pdfs

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or ir you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

[citizenB]

Ok, I have received and had a look at the paperwork they sent you and I think they might have lost the plot.. They are quoting all kinds of judgments/law which probably have no bearing whatsoever on the issue in hand.

 

I am trying to do a timeline here.

 

However, I keep getting logged out.. so will go and do it in word.. then copy and paste.. BRB

 

 

 

 

Point 7 : As you knew nothing about the judgment until it had been entered and have since been trying to find out exactly what you could do with little or no information provided, then you have acted as swiftly as you could and should not be penalised for that.

 

In any case, the debt was already statute barred at the time the judgment was awarded and by their own admittance at

[legoearth]

Thanks,I would have replied sooner but couldn't get on the website all night! Was there more as it finishes mid sentence!

[citizenB]

Hello yes, I am so sorry.. I have had problems getting into the site. I kept getting logged off yesterday evening

 

Anyway, I have stuck my thoughts and some observations on a pdf and attached below. HTH

 

For legoearth's thread..pdf

[legoearth]

Thanks ,that helps. Will let you know how we get on.

[citizenB]

Yes, please let us know how you get on..

[legoearth]

Well,this is the latest.

Application dismissed,

costs of £465 added.

 

I'm at the end of my tether.

 

How can this be?

 

How can somebody end up having to pay a debt that is not theirs and the law doesn't back the citizen up?

 

It's a farce,we'll lose our home if we have to pay this.

 

The letter from the court doesn't even say who or where we have to pay the costs to,

 

just pay by May 2nd. I

 

've had just about all I can take,

 

so has my partner.

[dx100uk]

bout time you sar 'ed the OC

 

as its a cat debt, that might not even be yours.the unlawful PENALTY charges will be high enough to wipe the debt out i bet...

 

have you ever checked your CRA file?

 

dx

[legoearth]

will have a look at CRA file but no time for the other one before May 2nd.

 

What wuld we do if they either come up with a file which obviously wont be his or have no files?

 

Wescot claimed to have detailed files but produced nothing in their witness statement,again obviously.

 

why then would the judge allow the judgement, it's beyond me!

[citizenB]

Presumably this is a "forthwith" judgment, which means you have to pay the whole amount by a certain date.

 

You can apply to pay in installments.. I will try and find someone who can advise further on that as it has to be done on a specific form.

 

If this debt is truly not yours, then no, you should not have to pay it. I simply dont know the answer.

 

BTW, if the debt is in just one person's name, then they will only be able to file a restriction on the half of the property that is the debtors.

[citizenB]

\Form N245 with payment (£45) and inclusion of a I&E with their first offer and payment.

 

If you wish to apply to vary the order from Forthwith to installment.. you need to submit the N245 as advised by andyorch above..

[legoearth]

Thank yuo for the replies. It is just so unfair that we have to pay somebody elses debt and there seems there is nothing we can do about it!

[debbbbsy]

Please don't lose faith, your absolutely correct the court judges and clerks are all geared up in favour of the claimant and blatantly ignore court procedures and the rights of the consumer.

 

It's a farce,we'll lose our home if we have to pay this.

 

You have every right to challenge the decision of the judge. We did this when a claim was issued against my husband, 3 judges all making different decisions, we just kept writing back pointing out that the he did not owe this money, the claimant, a mad bonkers woman was allowed to totally abuse the court system....it was a complete farce. We even made an official complaint to the courts. It took 6 months, eventually he was removed as the Defendand and the claim discontinued. So please please don't give up, and don't assume that the judge who looked at this case has a clue what they are doing.

 

Now, have they threatened to further enforce the CCJ with a charging order. If they have, their is another way to challenge the CCJ. The case law for this is Southern district finance vs Turner. She had had a CCJ from 1993, when she later applied for a set a side on the grounds that the agreement was unenforceable, the first judge dismissed her claim because of the amount of time that had lapsed. She appealed. The appeal judge said the 1st judge was wrong, if her case had merit CPR 3.9 and 3.10 allow the courts to 'overlook' errors of procedure as long as there is a good explanation for the error and there is merit in the underlying argument asked to be heard.

 

Here is the extract of his summing up

 

35. In our judgment, the interests of the administration of justice clearly demand that the issue raised by paragraphs 3-5 of the draft defence be tried as a discrete issue at an early date. It would not be in anybody's interests to leave the question whether this credit agreement is enforceable at all to hang about in the air until such time as the claimants elect to enforce their possession order. Mrs Turner is at present only paying interest on the loan. If she stopped paying altogether, the claimants would no doubt wish to bring the situation to a head by seeking to enforce their order. It would be very much better if the trial of the issues was now organised in an orderly manner, so that there will be no question of any need for an extensive hearing on the "extortionate credit bargain" issue if the "unenforceable credit agreement" point turns out to be a good one. Any injustice that might otherwise be suffered by the claimants due to the dilatoriness of the defendant and her solicitors can be mitigated by imposing the condition we have suggested.

36. We will therefore allow the appeal and permit the defendant to amend her original notice of appeal by adding an application for an extension of time for appealing. Although in theory we could now remit the matter to the circuit judge to allow him to determine the appeal, it would be thoroughly undesirable if we were to do so, given the length of the delays that have taken place since the district judge made his order.

37. We turn therefore to the district judge's order, of which Mr Fadipe has submitted a short note (which has not been submitted to the district judge for approval). It appears that the district judge declined to set the 1993 possession order aside on the basis that he had no jurisdiction to do so, and there was no application for permission to appeal against that order eight years out of time. He does not appear to have been invited to direct the trial of the issues arising on paragraphs 3-5 of the draft defence and counterclaim as discrete issues. Argument ran instead on the appropriateness of setting aside the 1993 possession order and the length of time over which the defendant could counterclaim the recovery of payments made in the past.

38. In our judgment, in view of the way in which the argument has developed on the appeal we are entitled to interfere with the district judge's order not because he was clearly wrong on the matters that he did decide, but because he did not take into account material matters (such as making a conditional order or the desirability of ordering a discrete preliminary issue on the enforceability issue) which could have led him to exercise his discretion differently.

39. In these circumstances we are entitled to exercise our discretion afresh. We will therefore add an additional paragraph (1A) to the district judge's order to the effect that:

 

"The Defendant may also counterclaim for a declaration as to the enforceability of the credit agreement and/or mortgage deed and/or of specific provisions thereof on the grounds set out in paragraphs 3-5 of the draft defence and counterclaim sent to the court under cover of her solicitor's letter dated 23rd January 2001 on the condition that if the said documents or any of them are held to be unenforceable the defendant is not to be at liberty to claim restitution of any of the monies paid by the claimants prior to the date of this order. "

 

In effect, you can challenge the enforceability of the original CCJ if you are at risk of losing possession of your home.

 

The full extract is here. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?202167-Help-with-N244-form-please.

 

Debbie xxx

[legoearth]

Thank you Debbie xxx does anybody know how you apeal now the aplication to set aside has been dismissed? As I said we now have costs added to the total and we didn't owe anything at all in the first place!

[debbbbsy]

I am not sure how it works, ring your local court and ask to speak to the court manager, don't bother with one of the clerks. Explain that you do not accept the decision, your application has merit and you have the right to have your case considered. Under no circumstances take no for an answer. They will probably say they cannot overule the decision, but stay strong.

 

Debbie

[legoearth]

Have to do another set aside aplication. Not really sure what else i can put in it. I'm trying to get in touch with the catalogue company for their explanation.

This is a nightmare!

[legoearth]

UPDATE-

 

Due to illness my partner couldn't go to the court on the day of the hearing so I went along to represent him.

 

The judge wouldn't hear the case without him being there so has ajourned it for 21 days.

 

The representative of wescot was there and again was awarded costs for his 5 minutes of work £110!!!!

Why couldn't I represent my partner?

 

The solicitor is Wescot but they listen to him and award him costs.

Wescot still have no proof of the debt being his, obviously ,but it looks like we'll lose as the judge said it could look like an abuse of process.

 

This is so unfair, even if we win we'll still owe £500 costs for something that wasn't his in the first place.

 

We can't afford a solicitor, legal aid only provides advice before court

and the solicitor we were given can't even be named or quoted as having advised!

 

This is a complete nightmare.

 

Any more advise as I can't actually see my partner going into a court room.