Bailiffs levied on car after liability order settled

[subprimevictim]

I had a liability order against me for unpaid non-domestic rates. I had 2 visits from bailiffs, did not let them in of course, and subsequently paid off the outstanding non-domestic rates in full directly to the council. That left the bailiff's fees of £42.50 for the 2 visits.

After a while I received a letter from Bristow and Sutor saying that I still owed their fees. I rang the council and was told that the liability order had been satisfied and my outstanding debt was zero. They confirmed that they had not paid Bristow and Sutor's fees out of the money I had paid to the council.

I am reluctant to pay Bristow and Sutor one penny of their fees, as they defrauded me 3 years ago by forging my signature on a walking possession order.

Yesterday, I had a visit from 2 more bailiffs who left a Notice of Seizure of goods stating that they have levied on my car. I have read on these forums that bailiffs are not allowed to levy or seize goods for costs alone, as the liability order is no longer valid.

I then rang the council, to be told again that the liability order is settled, but that bailiffs can recover their costs by whatever means they wish. The costs have now risen to £91. The council suggested I make an arrangement with the bailiff to pay, but I don't want to do so if the bailiff has acted unlawfully.

Please can someone advise urgently? The council are not interested and the notice states that I have 5 days to pay but the car can be removed at any time. I still feel they have made an unlawful levy, but I don't know what to do about it.

[wonkeydonkey]

I am pretty sure that they can only levy on your car if they have trodden the paths of obtaining a CCJ for the alleged debt then applying for enforcement?

That they do not appear to have done either suggests they are riding on the back of the liability order. If they have made the visits then it is fair to say they are entitled to the £42.50 but not a penny more, personally I would pay that to them, then take up your previous complaint of them having forged your signature and and taking monies by false pretences.

 

WD

[ploddertom]

In theory you have not discharged your Liability to the Council as the Bailiff is allowed to take his Fees first, and I suppose they could insist on these from the Council. You will need confirmation from the Council in writing that the Liability Order is discharged in full and is now satisfied. Therefore any charges from the Bailiff in my view become a civil matter between yourself and the Bailiff

 

I note what you said they did previously - have you thought of submitting a request fro a breakdown of their fees for that as the chances are they overcharged anyway.

 

I assume that a relative has since borrowed your car and is busy touring Scotland as we speak and that this was a long standing arrangement!

 

PT

[subprimevictim]

Thank you for your replies. I am resigned to paying Bristow & Sutor their lawful £42.50 fees, but that will still leave around £50 of their unlawful levy fees outstanding, for which they will presumably keep visiting me for and maybe levy on something else?

Ploddertom - yes you are right in assuming that the car has gone on a little holiday! But it will have to come back sometime..........and how can I stop them taking it apart from giving in and paying what they want? The council sounded reluctant to put in writing that the Liability order has been discharged when I requested that; they just said they will send a copy of my bill showing nil outstanding.

[tomtubby]

I would have strongly suggested that you pay the £42.50 to the bailiff as they have legally incurred this fee.

 

There is something quite serious about this query.

 

Firstly, statute law provides that from all payments made, bailiff fees MUST first be deducted. By not paying the £42.50 you have not in fact cleared the Liability Order and yes...the bailiff can indeed continue with enforcement.

 

HOWEVER...and this is where it is serous....you made payment DIRECT to the council. They should have know that THEY are legally obliged to ensure that the bailiff fees of £42.40 ARE DEDUCTED FIRST.

 

Although the council are therefore at fault, either way, you would still have difficulty as there would have been a balance to pay to clear the LO.

Unless the council are willing to recall the account as they had made an error, you may well find that you have to pay the £90 now demanded.

[outlawla]

The following is the relevant legislation dealing with allocation of payments, representing only part of the overall council tax debt and recovery costs. I'm assuming this is the same for business rates.

 

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

Relationship between remedies

 

52–(4) Where a step is taken for the recovery of an outstanding sum which is or forms part of an amount in respect of which a liability order has been made and under which additional costs or charges with respect to the step are also recoverable in accordance with this Part, any sum recovered thereby which is less than the aggregate of the amount outstanding and such additional costs and charges shall be treated as discharging first the costs and charges, the balance (if any) being applied towards the discharge of the outstanding sum.

From the above it appears that bailiffs should have first dibs of any recovered debt. But you need to be aware that the so called bailiff fees are in fact the councils which they have allowed the bailiff firm to retain under some contract or agreement.

 

I doubt whether you council would even know how to tell if a liability order has been discharged, or, in fact any council would. They certainly don't seem to know from what you've written. But if they are willing to send you a copy of your bill showing nil outstanding you can assume their contract with the bailiff firm does not state they are entitled to money they have not collected.

 

Something worth thinking about is, if you have paid the council directly, the bailiff has not recovered any funds.

[tomtubby]

EXCELLENT research Outlawla !!!