1st credit - Halifax. Loan sold to them twice?

[Pawsnclaws]

I need some advice if anyone can help with this one.

I had a personal unsecured loan with the Halifax approx 13-14 years ago. I lost my job and began making minimal payments. I can't recall if they took out a CCJ against me at the time.

I couldn't maintain these payments and the Halifax at the time were unable / unwilling to negotiate a reduction, so I had to stop paying. I heard nothing from them until approx 4 years ago when I received a letter from 1st Credit saying that they had been assigned the debt. I acknowledged the debt was owing by making a few payments through a DMC who was handling my other creditors. When I realised that the DMC were taking a substantial slice of my monthly payment for their costs, I ended that agreement as I thought I would just continue to pay my creditors directly on the same terms.

At that point 1st Credit demanded an increase from the £20 payment I had been making, to £150 approx a month. My income & expenditure clearly showed that was impossible, without stopping making payments to all my other creditors. They then got their solicitor Moorhead James to take up the case and file for bankruptcy and were unwilling to accept any monthly payment plan, they would only accept the amount owing approx £5000. Basically the week the case was to be heard, I sent a letter with a postal order asking for a copy of the agreement and the day they received it Moorhead James arranged for the bankruptcy hearing to be dismissed. They wouldn't say why and I heard no more, not even the copy of the credit agreement. That was in October 2009.

In May 2010 I received a letter from another debt collector Mackenzie Hall demanding payment. I informed them to refer back to 1st Credit as the account was in serious dispute and they had failed to provide information they were legally obligated to do. I heard no more from anyone.

Then this morning I received a letter from the Halifax saying that they have sold the debt to 1st Credit (who have already been on the phone this morning and left a message for me to ring them) and that all future communication is to be with them.

I'm not sure how to respond, especially as this debt had already been sold to them several years ago.

Any advice on how I proceed next would be appreciated, especially given the awful experience I had with this company a couple of years ago.

Thanks!

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

Just one question. 4 years ago you started paying again. Was there a period of 6 years (or more) before that time that no payment was made?

[Pawsnclaws]

Hi

There could have been but I'm not sure, I've never had statements from them or the Halifax and by then by making payments through the debt management company I acknowledged the debt anyway and when I tried to get them to see sense with the demand for £150 month I acknowledged it. They caught me off guard at a time when I was in a really low place (my daughter had just died - I was even asked to send them a copy of her death certificate!) and I just wanted to continue making the £20 monthly payments. Their caring response was pay in full or bankruptcy! So you might see why I'm loathed to have any further dealings with them.

[silverfox1961]

Well Worst Credit can demand as much as they want. Will they get it-NO. It is not up to them how much you pay, that is up to a court ONLY

 

If you look in the library (top left) there are some letters you can use to help you.

 

What I suggest you do is to send a letter to 1st Credit stating this account is still in dispute and send Halifax a SAR (both in library) You really need to find out when the last payment was before you restarted paying.

It also beggars the question. why did Moorhead James bottle out of the bankruptcy. Did they know the paperwork was iffy?

[Pawsnclaws]

Thanks Silverfox. It was only out of pure desparation at the thought of attending court and being made bankrupt that someone advised me to ask them to provide a copy of the agreement. Given the time involved I thought it might just postpone the hearing for a while, but then for Moorhead James to dismiss it and state that they were no longer dealing with me and referred me back to 1st Credit, clearly they must have known that the paperwork wasn't in order. I just couldn't face going through the whole thing again. They'd even lied and stated I'd been served with the documents months earlier, when I wasn't even living at the property. When I stated that I could prove I was hundreds of miles away on the day it was supposedly served, they could only say that they would produce the person who served it as a witness! That's when I knew that they were not just an independent & reputable Solicitor acting for 1st Credit, but were in fact at the same address and part of their Company network. So it would not surprise me if they were already aware of the paperwork issue.

Anyway, I'll send the 2 letters off via Recorded Delivery on Monday. I'm not sure who the Halifax has registered with the Data Protection Commissioner as the address of the Data Controller, but I'd presume the address that was on the letter they sent me today informing me of the sale of the debt to 1st Credit would be OK and they also gave me 1st Credit's address, so I can send that letter.

Would you suggest that Ialso inform 1st Credit that I have written to the Halifax and am awaiting the information relating to the SAR?

Sorry to keep asking your advice, but I really do appreciate it!

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Yes belt and braces approach inform 1st Crud, and again state account in dispute.

[silverfox1961]

With your letter to Worst Credit, you could add on at the end that you are dealing directly with Halifax. Don't ask them to put the account on hold while this happens. They haven't supplied the agreement when asked therefore the account is still in dispute.

I would remind them that you asked for the agreement on XX date and they did nothing

[Pawsnclaws]

Thanks Brigadier

[Pawsnclaws]

Thanks Silverfox...you've been a god send, although I've felt absolutely sick all day since I got the letter, at least I know what the next step is and see what happens.

If I did make payments within that 6 years, I know I'm going to have to deal with 1st Credit again and that's the part I feel anxious about.

[silverfox1961]

This debt has been passed back and forth over the last few years so I'll bet none of the creditors have a full account history. Usually when it hits Muck Hall's dingy back street office, there is something seriously wrong-usually Statute Barred.

Even if it was still a legit debt, I bet there is loads of charges on the account that could be reclaimed. Do you know if PPI was added?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Agree Silverfox there should be a limit to the number of times that any debt can be sold or assigned as you said

the paper work gets lost or ignored but the pond life continue to pass debts backwards and forwards with

the absolute minimum of proof.

[Pawsnclaws]

I dont know if PPI was applied, in fact thinking back on years it was more like 15 years ago when I took this out. I know I should have kept my paperwork!

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Have you done a Subject Access request to the original creditor to get

all the info they hold on the account?

[Pawsnclaws]

Not yet Brigadier, Silverfox has just directed me to that in the library, so I'm sending that off on Monday

[PGH7447]

subbing

[Pawsnclaws]

Hi

Well after a long wait ...HBOS (Halfiax) sent me a load of general junk on Saturday about credit ratings etc (not what I asked for and something I could have picked up in a branch - leaflets!) and at the bottom of the letter stated they were looking into the matter and would supply the information as soon as possible.

Then today 1st Credit wrote stating that they had no previous record of the account being in dispute or our request for the SAR.and therefore we have no valid dispute - I sent this to Moorhead James Solicitors in October 2009 who were there acting agent at the time as 1st Credit would not communicate with us directly and I still have the copy letter I sent, the Postal Order number and the print off of the signature from Royal Mail of the recorded delivery signature. How can they now say that because they have no record of this going back to 2009 through their acting agent it basically doesn't exist?

1st Credit also state that I have not specified under which ground i rely on for the notice under s10 of the data protection act and therefore they do not consider this valid as it also as the request also falls under the exemption in schedule 2 section 2 of the Act. - I have no idea what this is?

1st Credit have told us that the Halifax are unable to provide at this time a copy of the agreement and to contact the Halifax directly - we've done this and paid the Halifax £10 to supply the SAR but as i said before the HBOS are unable to provide any information at this time. So not sure where that leaves us?

1st Credit also state they are not harassing us and refer to the legal definition of harassment within the Administration of Justice Act 1970 which states harassment is not applicable if they are securing a discharge of an obligation due or believed be due or for the enforcement of any liability by legal process - I think the wording in the library SAR stated continued contact without providing the information requested would be classed as harassment, but I'm not sure how to respond to this?

They go on to state that OFT collection guidelines state it is unfair to communicate in whatever form with consumers in an unclear, inaccurate or misleading manner and they have not breached this - again not sure how to respond to this?

They finish by stating they look forward to my comments regarding this matter! - surely my only response should be I will respond once the Halifax / HBOS have provided the information I have paid for and requested as per the SAR. Should I also point out any other inaccuracies about the other points they have raised per above?

 

Any further advice would be appreciated!

Thanks!

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I think your'e right until you have

all the data you cannot respond.

I would be bl**dy minded like they

are and say you are putting the matter

on hold while their queries are investigated

and you are awaiting the information from

the SAR.

[Pawsnclaws]

Thanks, And what happens if they dont supply the information requested, can they still pursue this?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

You cannot postulate at this point

what the outcome maybe, so it's

a case of wait and see I think.

 

Brig.

[Pawsnclaws]

Thanks, I just wondered as clearly they have both admitted they are unable to supply the information requested (SAR) I just wondered if that remains the state of affairs, what I should do next / what they can do next.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

t is hard to know what the outcome

will be, it would IMO to try and guess

on what the SAR will divulge.

[Pawsnclaws]

sorry to keep asking questions...but if they can not supply even a copy of the credit agreement?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

If they cannot supply the copy of the agreement

then you put the account into dispute until they

do, or provide a reconstituted agreement

that fulfills the criteria of accuracy.

[Pawsnclaws]

Ok thanks so much, I have no idea what a reconstituted agreement that fulfills the criteria of accuracy is, .

After 15 years I'd have no idea what the criteria was, so I'll just sit tight and wait to hear from them

Thanks again!

[lilly white]

just looking in................